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Frost



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject: Fallout 3 Reply with quote

I'm surprised there aren't any Fallout 3 topics.

Bizarre that I should make one, considering I've never played any Fallout games. (Though I really want to)

But this next one by Bethesda looks very, very nice.

P.S.- I don't get the combat that I've heard about so far in FO3. Why aren't they going with real time, like Oblivion?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because Oblivion sucks compared to Fallout and turn based is the way of the Fallout...

Fallout 3 wouldn't be Fallout if it had real time combat.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Ahem* You weren't the first.

I just hope Bethesda makes Fallout 3 the game Oblivion was meant to be.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just hope that Fallout 3 will be Fallout 1 with better graphics.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel the need, now, after all of this constant Oblivion-hating, to stick up for the game.

Sure it had a couple problems (Leveling up). But it is easily one of the best RPG's ever made.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did enjoy Oblivion. But there were more than a couple serious problems with the game. I feel that despite the high production value, the game was in fact very sloppily set up.

The leveling system is the biggest gripe by far. The unintuitive mechanics and lack of reward for leveling really broke the game. But that can be fixed with mods, as many people have already proven.

However, the worse problem is Oblivion's verisimilitude. I posted a fair bunch of gripes and suggestions on the page I linked. One of them was that the game world had really the same problem as KOTOR I mentioned earlier: it was built as a game for the player, not as a functioning world in its own right. Not to mention that the leveling system led to some plainly stupid scenarios such as where bandits are better equipped than imperial legionaries. The quests also functioned totally independent of each other. Word of your vast fighting skill against Oblivion's hordes would not reach or be recognized by the fighter's guild. These are only a handful of examples in a figurative Garbage Truck of inconsistencies and plot holes.

And third, most important problem is that Oblivion as an RPG was neither a deep nor rewarding role playing experience. This is where I feel Oblivion could have, and should have succeeded and become a truly revolutionary experience. You had one choice, maybe two, in most moral situations. And the quests were built on rails. For example, when you join the Dark Brotherhood, you're forced to run by the storyline because the character must have been genuinely interested in working for the guild. What about being a double agent? Work for Lex (mercenary/spy)? Work for yourself (vigilante)? What about becoming a rogue agent later on? Even on a smaller scale, the world shouldn't be black or white. Remember the man in Weye who had problem getting his fishies for sticks? How about in addition to asking how one could help or laughing one's arse off, how about "Sorry, but I (can't/am too busy to) help you." "I've had experience with those fish. They can be a handful." "Why don't you hire someone to help?" "Confucius says..." The possibilities were advertised as endless, when they simply weren't so.

Oblivion was built like a train station. You had a lot of trains to choose from, but they all run on limited tracks that return to the station. What I ask, nay demand of Fallout 3 is that the game be a truly open world that the player becomes an actual part of, not its master. I want the quests to have many paths to victory, requiring to make deep choices that have far-reaching consequences. I want limits to be placed. If you choose one style fo playing, certain avenues should be simply closed off or made far more difficult for you. Basically, if what I hear of the games predecessors are true, Fallout 3 should be a sequel to Fallout 1 and 2, not Oblivion after the wind blows.

Mr. Meatbrain, who can rip arms out of their sockets, should be somewhat deficient in social graces in most civilized circles. Being so, Mr. Meatbrain must play the game with his brawn and not his butter knife wit. Even then, he should be able to use his brawn in a myriad ways to accomplish his objectives, whether it be to bend bars into the sewers and go below the infested wasteland above filled with radscorps, or run headlong into those radscorps and kick some irradiated ass.

Oblivion was huge in scope and physical size. But really, content wise, it barely got out of the first dungeon in comparison. I want Fallout 3, or any game for that matter, to achieve its full potential, just as Oblivion didn't.

***

And on a relate note. Oblivion was certainyl one of the greatest game in recent history, but as I said, it was a weak RPG. Like a said with KOTOR, it was a good game, bad RPG. A game can succeed in some fronts, and fail in others in the fields it was designed for. As a game, a game must be entertaining, with lasting appeal and perhaps some innovative features. As an RPG, a game must allow the player to develop a character in as many ways the player chooses as is technically possible, i.e. make use of the 'RP' in 'RPG'.
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Frost



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've got some definite good points there.

Unrelated, I think I really prefer real-time over turn-based. I think it puts you "there" more and is generally more fun.

However, I've not seen FO3's combat, but it does sound interesting...

P.s.-God, I wish I could download a mod to fix the leveling thing. However, I have the 360 version.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I'd opt for a hybrid approach, i.e. real-time with turn-based mechanics. Not real-time kinematics with turn-based dynamics, as the infinity or aurora engine games. But whatever it is, it should be more realistic and advanced than what has come before.

I've been working in my mind of a good combat system like that, but I'm still a little fuzzy on some of the details. I might post what I have later when I organized it all.

Also I would definately like to see some sort of multiplayer system. Co-op definately. But also perhaps somthing like what I suggested for Oblivion on UESP (Second last point as of time of writing). If the SPECIAL system is anywhere near as organic and fluid as Oblivion's skill system, it should definately be at least tested.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turn based stuff is cool for me, but it really only worked for the older games.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well you know, if they stick very well to the Fallout universe, you'll be fighting your way through abandoned military installations filled with Super Mutants, all armed with Miniguns, Laser Gattling, Rocket Launchers, Flamethrowers and Plasma Rifles... I'd much rather have a turn-based system then instead of having to deal with all of them in real-time.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twinkie, the Rap Master C wrote:
Turn based stuff is cool for me, but it really only worked for the older games.


Exactly.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aramoreo wrote:
Well you know, if they stick very well to the Fallout universe, you'll be fighting your way through abandoned military installations filled with Super Mutants, all armed with Miniguns, Laser Gattling, Rocket Launchers, Flamethrowers and Plasma Rifles... I'd much rather have a turn-based system then instead of having to deal with all of them in real-time.


That's exactly why I was fifty levels above than what I should have been when I fought a boss in FFXII that somehow had about fifty reapers replace one dead reaper... and then there was that spider shit of a boss. Don't get me started about how much backup that thing needed.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon_Says wrote:
Personally I'd opt for a hybrid approach, i.e. real-time with turn-based mechanics.

That worked well in X-Com: Apocalypse. Not an RPG, but the action point system and mix of firearms and high tech energy weapons draws certain comparisons with Fallout. It was simply a case of turning a character with better stats in a turn based situation into someone who runs faster and shoots more accurately in real time. Which wouldn't work in a first person game, so I'm tending to agree with Aramor that Fallout 3 should have remained third person. I can't imagine too many people have a high opinion of the ranged combat in Oblivion, Vampire: Bloodlines and the like. Shooting people was generally just a minor annoyance, which is somewhat unrealistic. If Fallout is gonna have to be first person, the guns damn well better be capable of killing people outright. Even a high level character in Power Armour could be reduced to meaty chunks by one critical hit. Hell, all the weapons are dangerous. I once killed the Lieutenant with a few punches from the power fist because I hit him in the eyes for obscene amounts of damage.

I'll reserve judgement on the targetting system until I've played the game. I would point out that you don't have to use it, it is merely an option.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my experience, although turn-based can be tedious, it is necessary when one has to control so many characters. I had to play Fallout Tactics turn-based; my characters would do stupid things otherwise (like get killed).
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They did tend to use up all their AP, then stand there and get shot to pieces. They were always surprisingly unconcerned by the fact, too. That game doesn't work in real-time mode. What I particularly hate is when you're playing an RPG or strategy game and some smart arse looks over your shoulder and says, "you can't pause in a real battle". No shit, Sherlock. I'm pretty sure that in a real battle the commander issues orders to his subordinates, who then relay their own orders to their subordinates to achieve the larger objective. And everyone in that chain of command is capable of independent activity. You know, as opposed to standing completely still and possibly returning fire if shot at, unless you physically take control of them and direct their actions.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But then again, Fallout Tictacs was just an awesome squad-based strategy RPG in a PA world which thus has the name Fallout slapped on it...

I just hope that Fallout 3 will not be anything like F:POS...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've thought about it a great deal, and I'm ready to present my idea of a hybrid system I mentioned earlier. Input would be appreciated.

First I would have to clarify that real-time here means fps-style twitch-based gameplay, and turn-based means rpg-style stat based gameplay. I know it doesn’t really make sense but everyone seems to be making the same mistake. Blaster, your problem is more of an AI issue than one of having to play turn based. It sounds you just had to pause frequently to control your game, which is just pausing, not turn based, no matter how slow it is.

As I would imagine it, one could run around in first person with primary weapons at hand (essentially the classic real time fps mechanic), but be able to pause at any given moment, be given a third-person vantage of the battlefield, and use special abilities (grenades, spells, “make head a splode”, etc.) that are based on stat-influenced 'dice rolls'. Basically you take the two systems, real time and turn based, and isolate them so that they're doing only what they're good at, but you’re able to swap them whenever you need it to. They could have completely different interfaces even, each designed and streamlined for their purpose. Of course the real-time aspects of the game would be influenced by your stats. Perhaps higher agility and perception could smooth out a sway effect similar to Far Cry, for instance. This should refute Chainsaw’s comment.

But what about the other end, the turn based? I was thinking of instead of a paused system, what about a ‘matrix’ effect? Essentially the game slows down so that you still need to have to act somewhat quickly if you are to utilize whatever opportunity presented itself. i.e. The stat-influenced real-time would be balanced by a time-limited turn based. This could even be explained in-game: you have neural implants/training/whatev that allows you to quicken your mental processes and launch a flying drone that overrides your optic nerve, allowing you to see and operate in third person. When the game needs to be paused outright the escape key simply pressed leads to a main screen or something, so the player does not gain an unfair advantage.

The result should be that the player will be in control of his whole combat scenario. The player’s skill complements the character’s skill. Yet to be a better marksman, he needs to build his character’s stats. Likewise the player needs to learn to be quick and decisive in order to master his special abilities. One could even have specific ‘difficulty’ settings that changes how much the system bleed in each other. For example, on extreme difficulty, stats don’t aid the first-person, and no slow-down is in effect when you go third-person.

What do you guys think of it? Should I email Bethesda and tell them how it should be done?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should email them and just tell them it should be turn-based like in Fallout 1 and 2.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like you're describing a system similar to that used in Spellforce, Simon. It was an great blend of RPG and RTS. I haven't played Fallout, though...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aurelyn wrote:
It sounds like you're describing a system similar to that used in Spellforce, Simon. It was an great blend of RPG and RTS. I haven't played Fallout, though...

That is fucking weird. I've had a copy of Spellforce for several years (over three in fact; picked it up in a sale back when I worked in a game shop) and today is the day that I actually took it out of the plastic and read the instructions with a view to playing it tomorrow. Bizarre.

Re: Simon's idea, it doesn't sound all that dissimilar to the VATS system they're looking to implement in Fallout 3 (viewpoint aside). Limited pause time has been around at least since the original Space Hulk (in the case of that game it was to issue orders to your fellow Terminators) and it can work well when implemented properly. It's kind of a compromise, reducing the difficulty of controlling a character (pressing buttons and cycling through menus will always be less intuitive, and slower, than controlling your own body), while still leaving you under some pressure.

It's a good idea, and would allow more control over one's character, but I suspect it's rather a moot point anyway. Ever more Devs are making lowest common denominator games, assuming that everybody playing is a cack-handed spanner with the gaming skills of a jar of mouldering faeces. Y'know, the kind of people who actually thought that Ninja Gaiden on Xbox was hard. So the current crop of games' controls and objectives are as dumbed down as possible. Some of us have talent. And a brain. And reflexes, Mr. Publisher. Deal with it. Wow, I sound angry, guess I just don't see much point in paying £20-40 for a new game one can essentially drift through on some sort of gaming autopilot.

But no, my friend, you shouldn't email Bethesda. They'd just tell you they don't accept unsolicited submissions anyway. I guess the way to really show 'em is to make a better game than them. Anybody know a few dozen coders, audio guys and artists? And have a few million pounds?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be one of the audio and artist guys, but I'm so broke that not even god can fix that.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Chainsaw wrote:
Re: Simon's idea, it doesn't sound all that dissimilar to the VATS system they're looking to implement in Fallout 3 (viewpoint aside). Limited pause time has been around at least since the original Space Hulk (in the case of that game it was to issue orders to your fellow Terminators) and it can work well when implemented properly. It's kind of a compromise, reducing the difficulty of controlling a character (pressing buttons and cycling through menus will always be less intuitive, and slower, than controlling your own body), while still leaving you under some pressure.
I don't see it as a compromise. Those menus and such are really the easier way to do anything tactical, especially when crowd-control is involved. If done properly, menus and such can be very quick and intuitive. Neverwinter Nights 2, although it failed at quickbar and inventory functions, fought very nicely with the quick-cast bar (which presented all memorized spells in a neat, orderly section of the screen that can be summoned at any time), context-specific auto-functions (you don't need to cycle through menus in order to open a lock or disarm a trap, the obvious thing to do when you detect one) and targeting graphics (which showed both range and shape of applicable spells). Fights were really now understandable and not guesswork as in previous DnD games. I always hated how a miscast fireball would sometimes piss off the city guard in the original NWN even though they were just inside the blast range. A properly design interface need not be confusing, slow or even complex, especially if it's all hotkeyed properly, and still offer complete control over your fight. Yes it will inevitable be slower than just FPSifying the whole damn thing, but that's what pause is for, no?

But the VATS system seems more like a rip-off of Metroid Prime's scan visor combined with a command-queue. I really can't see it being any help for crowd control. Also targeting specific body parts like this appears to be straddling the fps/rpg line without satisfying either end. We can hit body parts easily enough on our own (boom headshot!), is the VATS system basically a 'Called Shot'? Wouldn't it actually take out all the real-time from the combat? Something seems wrong here already. But I do concede there are striking similarities. I can't believe I didn't actually hear about this VATS system earlier. But where the hell did all the groin-shots go? I want to kick rat groin!

Mr Chainsaw wrote:
It's a good idea, and would allow more control over one's character, but I suspect it's rather a moot point anyway. Ever more Devs are making lowest common denominator games, assuming that everybody playing is a cack-handed spanner with the gaming skills of a jar of mouldering faeces. Y'know, the kind of people who actually thought that Ninja Gaiden on Xbox was hard. So the current crop of games' controls and objectives are as dumbed down as possible. Some of us have talent. And a brain. And reflexes, Mr. Publisher. Deal with it. Wow, I sound angry, guess I just don't see much point in paying £20-40 for a new game one can essentially drift through on some sort of gaming autopilot.
True enough. Some games do work out effectively, though. Halo on legendary is a good example of what should be. Although heroic did offer a challenge, it was only a bit above average. But legendary required completely different approaches to combat, not just better aim and quicker feet. Also, apparently Diablo 2 or something of the sort had a special difficulty setting that basically punted you back to level 1 whenever you died, no reloads allowed. Now that kind of difficulty should be in every game. Then it would really mean something when you boast of how you beat a game on ‘impossible’ or whatever.

But as far as controls are concerned, I don’t see what you’re talking about. The general controls and functions available in virtually any game have remained almost unchanged in their respective genres for about a decade. The only upping shooters got was the innovation of mouse-look, which was in every way an improvement. Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine was nigh-impossible for me on the keyboard. The only really major change I’m aware of in strategy games is the removal/modification of typical resource gathering and unit-building, which is more of a mixed bag than anything. I’m not sure what you mean by objectives, so if you could please clarify...

Mr Chainsaw wrote:
But no, my friend, you shouldn't email Bethesda. They'd just tell you they don't accept unsolicited submissions anyway. I guess the way to really show 'em is to make a better game than them. Anybody know a few dozen coders, audio guys and artists? And have a few million pounds?
I don’t know anyone that heavy, but in any case that wouldn't be necessary. Just make a mod based on an existing game that implements whatever you want to use and show off how effective it is. Oblivion would be a perfect candidate I think, considering all its correctable flaws. Better yet, we should gather a team to do it for Fallout 3 when it comes out, if its system sucks. Hopefully Fallout 3 will have a nice editor tool to muck around with. I shouldn’t imagine it too complex a task to modify the camera and interface.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon_Says wrote:
I’m not sure what you mean by objectives, so if you could please clarify...

What I mean is that almost every game I play these days spells out everything you need to do, points you where to go with an arrow (even when it's completely obvious where you have to go), and the tasks given usually involve going to a designated location and pressing X/E/Space/Whatever to throw a switch or power down a generator. Whatever happened to the action adventure genre? It's not just the linearity, though. It's the absolute lack of creativity. This is OK in straight action games up to a point, Doom was about shooting shit, not collecting keycards. But, the action alone isn't good enough to carry most games. I prefer employing a bit of lateral thought to accomplish in-game goals.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then you have a pretty good point. Throwing switches and becoming the world's top delivery boy does indeed get very dull. I think I already touched on the topic in my 'Oblivion is a Train Station' rant.

Yes, developers should encourage players to be creative. And not through glitches or such.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon_Says wrote:
Then you have a pretty good point. Throwing switches and becoming the world's top delivery boy does indeed get very dull. I think I already touched on the topic in my 'Oblivion is a Train Station' rant.

In Morrowind, and also Oblivion you're always basically taking package A to point B, or going to location X to talk to character Y. It's the getting there that I like about those games. The objectives are one dimensional, but you still have plenty of freedom of approach compared to a lot of modern titles. Simply the opportunity to talk or fight remains pretty much the sole preserve of the CRPG.

An ironic thought, the first game I thought of as being good enough at the shooting bit to just be a straight actioner is HL2, which features plenty of lateral thinking and opportunities for creativity. And is all the better for it. I guess F.E.A.R. and 'Gears are the current poster boys for shooting shit till there ain't no shit left to shoot. And then finding more shit to shoot.

What the fuck was this thread originally about anyway?
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