Alien Loves Predator Forum Index
         
FAQFAQ    SearchSearch    RegisterRegister    ProfileProfile    Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages    Log inLog in 
Munamania #10 - Proud of the Netherlands?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Alien Loves Predator Forum Index -> The Soap Box
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Munan
Moderator


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 30 May 2005
Posts: 3232
Location: Living on my own

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:25 am    Post subject: Munamania #10 - Proud of the Netherlands? Reply with quote

The Dutch are not an overtly chauvinistic people and I am no exception to this. There are, however, a few occasions on which I feel sincerely proud of the Netherlands and will not hesitate to express my pride. One example is the fact that this was the first country in the world where a gay marriage was legally performed.

Sadly enough, gay people are still harassed here, even in Amsterdam, often called the ‘gay capital of the world’. Recently, the city experienced a growing number of incidents at schools that have a large ethnic population, where gay and lesbian teachers were severely bullied by their Muslim students. It is a shame that these teachers did not always get sufficient support from their school boards who were afraid they would loose their students. It is scary that Muslim youth are thus enabled to force their religiously inspired intolerant views on others.

At the same time, I feel uneasy when people take this as an example to warn against a Muslim takeover of our liberal society. First of all, certainly not all Muslims support this kind of behaviour. This is not to say, of course, that individual people calling themselves Muslims could not cause unnecessary damage in their direct surroundings. It is a bit ridiculous, however, to claim (as certain right wing populist politicians have done) that the eight hundred thousand Muslims among the seventeen million Dutch citizens would succeed in thoroughly Islamising the Netherlands. There is simply too few of them.

Much more dangerous is the fact that we do not need Muslims to start undoing gay emancipation in the Netherlands. Recently the strictly Christian party ChristianUnion became part of our government, alongside the Christian Democrats and the Labour Party. Immediately it became known that civil servants, who are against gay marriages on religious grounds, will have the right to refuse to perform them. This comes down to allowing civil servants to discriminate. So here, on a national level, we find a party that has six seats in parliament playing the part of the Muslim high school bullies who make it impossible for their teachers to live their life the way they want to, while the Christian Democrats (whose leader once told an Indonesian Muslim he voted against gay marriages) and the Labout party act like the classroom hanger ons. The problem is – these people have the power to put their bullying into legislation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Aurelyn
Moderator


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 3578
Location: Aw Hell No!

PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ireland of course is much less known than the Netherlands for its relaxed attitude towards minorities, mostly due to the stifling influence a strict Catholic culture has had on the country <ducks>. That said, it is growing up very fast and Cork in particular now has the most active gay community in the country. Unfortunately, we still have a long way to go and there is currently no provision for same-sex marriage within the law (a dubious distinction we share only with Greece within the European Union as far as I'm aware.) This makes it all the more important that rights that have been won and enjoyed in other countries don't become un-won as it were by the coersive actions of a fanatic few (it always bloody comes down to religion doesn't it). Interestingly, for such a religious country (until recently anyway), Ireland keeps its politics and its religion very separate...
_________________
Da Fro-mastah of da aLp Forums!

Master Chainsaw wrote:
Aurelyn becomes enraged by imbecilic displays of illiteracy, as is his wont.


Simon_Says wrote:
Sal would know. He stole many jobs from guys named Shaun.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Crotchfire



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 527
Location: You wouldn't believe me if I told you.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's unfortunate that the enlightened idea of "freedom of religion" can be taken to the extent that one may infringe upon the rights of others so long as it can be justified by religion.

If a civil servant were to refuse to perform gay marriages on the grounds that "Dude, boning another man's ass? That's nasty.", surely this would get the guy fired.

However, if a civil servant is to refuse to perform gay marriages on the grounds that "My religion says so.", then the guy is likely to retain his job.

We should never have invented God in the first place.
_________________
The official MILF-masta of the AlP forums.
In addition to my well-documented exploits, my first two initials are MF. Seriously, I'm not making that up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Simon_Says



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 6823
Location: Being generally opposing.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oriana Fallaci would have a field day with this one.

Munan wrote:
At the same time, I feel uneasy when people take this as an example to warn against a Muslim takeover of our liberal society. First of all, certainly not all Muslims support this kind of behaviour. This is not to say, of course, that individual people calling themselves Muslims could not cause unnecessary damage in their direct surroundings. It is a bit ridiculous, however, to claim (as certain right wing populist politicians have done) that the eight hundred thousand Muslims among the seventeen million Dutch citizens would succeed in thoroughly Islamising the Netherlands. There is simply too few of them.


Those 'too few' of them do present a great threat. They take their status of 'cultural minority' and use it to bully the majority down. And it doesn't matter that not all, or even the majority of muslims support it. A few men can change the world, as 9-11 so dramatically demonstrated to us, and the aggressively expansionist muslims do count up to much more than a few. And I know not all muslims condone the actions of these 'few', but I have done my research, and met many muslims, and the simple truth is that muslims generally are infringers and threats even if they don't want to be. I've read the Koran, and what I found is a book that tells its followers to be natural expansionists. Move in, conquer, subjugate, populate.

It's like what the germans did in East Prussia centuries ago. I'm sure they didn't want to be assholes and take over Polish land that was lent to them but with nudges from men with voices and power the place became thoroughly german, so german in fact its separation from the german mainland caused the single worst war in the history of mankind.

And it's not as if there are too few. Muslims in Europe come, they practice polygamy, and suddenly they become the fastest growing ethnic group on the continent. Frankly, that was a perfect example of the Muslim takeover of our liberal (i.e. western) society. Laws are being put in place that apply only to muslims. For fucks sake, arabs in Switzerland can dodge any criminal charge by invoking thier religion and the states supposed prejudice against it.

Muslims in Europe and North America are setting up an environment which is favorable to them, and only them. The laws are favoring them. Political correctness is shielding them. They demand that everything christian be banned from schools because it offends them, but then later christian kids must read the koran and learn shariah because there are two muslim brothers in the classroom. They are a very small minority now, but simply put, they are usign their small numbers to demand favoritism, and when that's in place, then they will come flooding in, generally spouting that the desert was a shitty place and they want a taste of freedom and money.

Right.

I'd highly suggest reading The Rage and the Pride and The Force of Reason by Oriana Fallaci. Hopefully it hasn't been stripped from your bookstores or libraries yet.

Well there's my two dinars.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
AAATripper



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 1085
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere...

PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With 1500 Iraqi Dinars equaling 1 USD, I think you owe us a little more than 2 dinars to make up for your 2 cent comment...
_________________
My Unit Patch
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Munan
Moderator


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 30 May 2005
Posts: 3232
Location: Living on my own

PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon_Says wrote:
Those 'too few' of them do present a great threat. They take their status of 'cultural minority' and use it to bully the majority down.


And, pray, where did you get your knowledge on Muslims in Europe? Because, quite frankly, you just seem to copy your comments from extreme right populist websites. I live in a neighbourhood with about 70 percent of the citizens being Muslim. I've worked in working places with a gay boss and a Muslim secretary. I'm partly Muslim myself and am - although I will never deny that some of what you say in your post is definitely true and I would be the last to defend Islam as the rigid set of doctrines many Muslims make it out to be - I would say, a bit more entitled to conclude on the state of affairs in Holland then you.

Quote:
I've read the Koran, and what I found is a book that tells its followers to be natural expansionists. Move in, conquer, subjugate, populate.


Same shit as you will find in the bible.

"oh, but Munan, Jesus told us all to love each other!"

Yes he did. He also said he did not come in peace, but carrying a sword. He came to incite brother against brother, father against son and mother against daughter (or something like that).

Same contradictory message as you will find in the Koran. If you want to say bad things about a religion, you can focus on the shitty parts. If you want to say good things, you can focus on the nice and shiny parts.
I say we just judge people on their actions. I am, after all, a secularist.

Quote:
It's like what the germans did in East Prussia centuries ago. I'm sure they didn't want to be assholes and take over Polish land that was lent to them but with nudges from men with voices and power the place became thoroughly german, so german in fact its separation from the german mainland caused the single worst war in the history of mankind.


The big difference being, of course, that the Prussians were a brutal occupying force, whereas the vast majority of Muslims in Holland are working class slaves with no effective influence in lawmaking and the way society is run.

Quote:
And it's not as if there are too few. Muslims in Europe come, they practice polygamy, and suddenly they become the fastest growing ethnic group on the continent. Frankly, that was a perfect example of the Muslim takeover of our liberal (i.e. western) society. Laws are being put in place that apply only to muslims.


The last sentence is simply not true in Europe! The rest of this sentence sounds like a Fascist progaganda movie. You forgot to mention rats.

Quote:
Muslims in Europe and North America are setting up an environment which is favorable to them, and only them.


As are all religious minorities. That's my bloody point. What I am saying is that while you are complaining about Muslims, fundamentalist Christians are gaining power everywhere to put in effect the very same thing that we blame Muslims for wanting to do while those Muslim hold no effective power. What I am saying is we should get our priorities straight. In Poland, a rightwing Catholic party gained power. It has a very popular radio station that likes to defame Jews and Gypsies on a regular basis. Why are you complaining about Muslims while, in your own community, there are enough things to be worked on?
What's that saying again? Something with a beam...

Quote:
They demand that everything christian be banned from schools because it offends them, but then later christian kids must read the koran and learn shariah because there are two muslim brothers in the classroom.


Name me ONE (ONE!!!!!!!!!) Western European country where this has happened (because that is what we are bloody well talking about). If not, don't go around spreading false propaganda like this.

Quote:

They are a very small minority now, but simply put, they are usign their small numbers to demand favoritism, and when that's in place, then they will come flooding in, generally spouting that the desert was a shitty place and they want a taste of freedom and money.


Eh, yes. Now replace Muslim with the n-word and realise in which camp you are placing yourself.

Quote:
Well there's my two dinars.


I like you, Simon, so excuse me for my fierce comment. But you got me a bit worked up here, especially because I think the tendency of your thread was very unlike I know you.
_________________
The Justified Ancient of Mu Mu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sal



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 4628
Location: home and such

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
In Poland, a rightwing Catholic party gained power. It has a very popular radio station that likes to defame Jews and Gypsies on a regular basis.


so:
the radio station in question is not owned or controlled by the ruling party or by the state, nor ever was;
it's also not "very popular". it's got its devoted fanbase, but it's far from being a dominant force.
i'm afraid that's some demonizing you happened to fall for.

it is a profoundly Catholic radio station, owned by the Church and run by priests and nuns; yes, it is "infamous" for being conservatist (how can you be infamous for being conservatist? is it so wrong to be conservatist?), euro-sceptical, fiercely patriotic and yes, unfortunately moderately anti-semitic as well, which is wrong, i agree. i've no idea where you got the Gypsies from though.
it was initially supposed to be a strictly religious station, with no pretence to political debate. it became more engaged because some of the priests behind it felt the need to speak out. and frankly why shouldn't they? after all freedom of speech is the prime weapon in the hands of the left-wing, liberal, pro-european, modern, open-minded, enlightened, good and wise mass media which love to hate the said station, and which no doubt were the source of your knowledge on the matter.
i'm not attacking or defending anyone. all i'm saying it's more complicated than that.

i'm fully Polish myself and am - although i will never deny that you are a man of sharp insight and i would be the last to defend those who abuse Catholicism to spread intolerance - i would say, a bit more entitled to conclude on the state of affairs in Poland than you.

Munan wrote:
fascist propaganda... n-word...

just call him a fascist and the argument's won, aye?
yes, i'm familiar with this strategy, i've seen it used on a regular basis.
all i want answered is who usurped the right to put the bloody equation mark between conservatist/rightwing and intolerant or, better still, fascist?

Quote:
The East Prussia affair...

...was also more complex than Simon claims. it has to do with centuries of mutual animosity and growing weakness of Polish monarchy. it also wasn't the main cause for the WWII, come on, guys. a good excuse, yes, not the cause.
_________________
i have no time for anal love
Simon_Says wrote:
Sal, you're my favourite member again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Munan
Moderator


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 30 May 2005
Posts: 3232
Location: Living on my own

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sal wrote:
it was initially supposed to be a strictly religious station, with no pretence to political debate. it became more engaged because some of the priests behind it felt the need to speak out. and frankly why shouldn't they? after all freedom of speech is the prime weapon in the hands of the left-wing, liberal, pro-european, modern, open-minded, enlightened, good and wise mass media which love to hate the said station, and which no doubt were the source of your knowledge on the matter.


Very well possible, the Dutch media is not very favourable on Poland lately. I apologise for my misrepresentation of the matter.
However, fact is that they are (moderately) anti-semitic out of a religious mind-frame, and I merely wanted to point out that we don't need Muslims in Europe for the spreading of intolerance.

Both the Christian churches and islam are sources of intolerance (as well as tolerance) and the first are actually a force of influence in Europe while the latter are hardly one. So all the so called 'defenders of freedom' who like to slander islam should get their priorities straight. That was my argument.

Quote:
i'm fully Polish myself and am - altho
ugh i will never deny that you are a man of sharp insight and i would be the last to defend those who abuse Catholicism to spread intolerance - i would say, a bit more entitled to conclude on the state of affairs in Poland than you.


Yes you are. Thank you for providing this information and, again, apologies.


Quote:
Munan wrote:
fascist propaganda... n-word...

just call him a fascist and the argument's won, aye?
yes, i'm familiar with this strategy, i've seen it used on a regular basis.
all i want answered is who usurped the right to put the bloody equation mark between conservatist/rightwing and intolerant or, better still, fascist?


I did not. I just said that Simon's talk resembled in parts fascist propaganda. I would like to remind you that I am partly Muslim and a large part of my family is as well. Now, imagine how you would feel if someone would write like that about the Polish (and make no mistakes, there are dodgy media in Holland who write like that about Polish people and other eastern europeans). That's why I reacted so strongly. I was very unpleasantly stricken by his approach, especially because it resembles so closely the kind of slander that has been thrown at Catholics and Jews and Gypsies and you name it in the Netherlands and other European countries in the past.

Basically I read what he wrote as implying: (1) these Muslims, they spread like a disease (2) they force their will upon others and (3) they have a inherently violent religion.

To which my reaction would be:
(1) OMG!!!11!!! Polygamy!!! Actually, the number of Muslims practising polygamy in the Netherlands is much smaller than ethnic Dutch having several relationships at the same time.
(2) In my column, I fully acknowledged this is true at certain schools and neighbourhoods, but not on a national scale. There it's mostly the Muslims being slandered, we've got a party with NINE seats in our parliament which gets its popularity almost exclusively from constantly blaming the Muslims for everything going wrong in Holland. One of their main arguments is: Muslims are taking away our liberties. But they put a blind eye to the fact that there is a fundamentalist Christian party that wants to abolish women's voting rights and make Catholicism, Islam and all other religions apart from protestantism illegal AND THIS PARTY HAS TWO SEATS IN PARLIAMENT!!! Another fundamentalist Christian party has become part of our government and has allowed public servants to refuse to marry gay couples. This is what I am saying: Isn't it a bit weird to constantly attack a group of people (i.e. Muslims) who have no influence at all on a national scale, while fundamentalist Christians are nibbling away at our liberties and no one is saying a damn thing? All in all, Simon has not responded to that point I'm making at all.
(3) So is Christianity and most other religions. All of these are also inherently peaceful - it depends on what you want to make of it.


Anyway, I read Simon's comments as slander and slander has always been the tool of fascists. I was merely pointing that out to Simon, NOT saying he was a fascist. If he were, I would be as well, since I have slandered before and will probably do so in the future as well, although I am ashamed of it and try to avoid it. I know, in essence, drawing parallels with fascism is a cheap trick, but like I say, I was angry. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to put some nuances with it.

Quote:
Quote:
The East Prussia affair...

...was also more complex than Simon claims. it has to do with centuries of mutual animosity and growing weakness of Polish monarchy. it also wasn't the main cause for the WWII, come on, guys. a good excuse, yes, not the cause.


I've always thought it a bit weird Prussia got almost the full blame for WWII - Hitler and most of them around him were not Prussian and German fascism started in Bavaria.
_________________
The Justified Ancient of Mu Mu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sal



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 4628
Location: home and such

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:

Very well possible, the Dutch media is not very favourable on Poland lately. (...) and make no mistakes, there are dodgy media in Holland who write like that about Polish people and other eastern europeans.

yes, i expected as much. that's actually one thing that the more leftwing media back here use to scare us - "if we misbehave you know what German and French and Dutch papers will write about us!" (British or Italian papers somehow aren't brought up that often, their scare value must be lower).
me and my innate scepticism never believed, say, Dutch papers give more than two shits about what goes on in the smelly Polish background, and i always thought there is much overblown paranoia in this.
it saddens me to find there's actually truth in that. we're really not that bad, you know. women in Poland can now travel on inside of bus and homosexuals no longer have to wear blue hats...

Quote:
Both the Christian churches and islam are sources of intolerance (as well as tolerance) and the first are actually a force of influence in Europe while the latter are hardly one. So all the so called 'defenders of freedom' who like to slander islam should get their priorities straight. That was my argument.

you are of course right.
but aren't Muslim communities in western countries on the verge of becoming a force of influence in Europe?
i'm not saying they are already, but you must agree that they have prospects on starting to matter.
take France, where the Christian influence is, to the best of my knowledge, very diminished compared to, yes, some of the more Eastern countries. isn't there grounds to claim that Muslims will become influential on the society in the predictable future?
and i'm not saying if it's good or bad, i only want to point out that the balance of, let's call it power, will be shifting.

Quote:
I just said that Simon's talk resembled in parts fascist propaganda.

okay, sorry, maybe i overreacted as well.
i guess we in Poland (and other Eastern European countries) have stronger associations with fascism than the Westerners. don't forget concentration camps were built on our territory, and some of my friends (not me fortunately) have lost their grandfathers there.
and the "you talk like a fascist" rhetoric has really been used (overused) a lot recently, also in Polish media, which i feel is quite disrespectful of the people who had to do with the real fascists.
but you said yourself you feel it's a cheap trick.
sorry, i didn't mean to offend you.

Quote:
we've got a party with NINE seats in our parliament which gets its popularity almost exclusively from constantly blaming the Muslims for everything going wrong in Holland (...)there is a fundamentalist Christian party that wants to abolish women's voting rights and make Catholicism, Islam and all other religions apart from protestantism illegal AND THIS PARTY HAS TWO SEATS IN PARLIAMENT!!!

hey, at least you keep them marginalised, if our fanatics could be as marginalised in the parliament.

Quote:
Another fundamentalist Christian party has become part of our government and has allowed public servants to refuse to marry gay couples.

oh wait, you have problems as well. well, guess that's democracy for you, we wanted it so now we gotta accept what it entails.

on a sidenote, you mean you have two different fundamentalist Christian party? let me risk a wild guess here - did they use to be one party, but then some of the co-leaders fell out with each other and the party broke in two? coz that's what happens regularly to rightwing parties back here, so i wonder if that's maybe not uniquely Polish phenomenon.

Quote:
(3) So is Christianity and most other religions. All of these are also inherently peaceful - it depends on what you want to make of it.

i have insufficient knowledge to debate over this. maybe someday.
_________________
i have no time for anal love
Simon_Says wrote:
Sal, you're my favourite member again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Munan
Moderator


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 30 May 2005
Posts: 3232
Location: Living on my own

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sal wrote:
me and my innate scepticism never believed, say, Dutch papers give more than two shits about what goes on in the smelly Polish background, and i always thought there is much overblown paranoia in this.
it saddens me to find there's actually truth in that. we're really not that bad, you know. women in Poland can now travel


Well, don't get me wrong, actual slander you will only find in right-wing, conservative parts. I read two newspapers, a liberal, slightly right-wing one and a leftwing one (both are, however, progressive) and those would never insinuate untruths. They actually try to give a more honest picture of what is going on, but cultural stereotypes are omnipresent.

Quote:
but aren't Muslim communities in western countries on the verge of becoming a force of influence in Europe?
i'm not saying they are already, but you must agree that they have prospects on starting to matter.


Well, I'm not sure. Take Holland, for instance.

There's 800.000 Muslims. Some don't even have voting rights and among those 800.000 there's a substantial group, like me, that has become secularised to a very high extent. So say (for the sake of argument) that among those 800.000 there's 50.000 people ready and able to push for a turn towards a Muslim society (I believe that would actually be less, but okay) and then there's maybe 200.000 to 300.000 fellow travellers able to support them. In a nation of 17 million civilians, that's hardly going to bring you anywhere.

Quote:
take France, where the Christian influence is, to the best of my knowledge, very diminished compared to, yes, some of the more Eastern countries. isn't there grounds to claim that Muslims will become influential on the society in the predictable future?


Well, definitely not more than Catholics, who still have a much higher number in France. The difference is of course that in the current situation Islam activates people in France where Catholicism doesn't. But you will see that the moment Muslims start to become activistic, there will be a countermovement. They are, still, a minority, you know.
Also, it's important to point out that last year's riots in France Simon has in the past mentioned as a Muslim thing, were not a Muslim thing at all. Those were youth from french slums rebelling against the police. Among them were members of any possible minority: Sub-Saharean African, North-African, Turkish etc. It didn't matter whether they were Muslim or not, they felt discriminated against, were misguided and rebelled. Of course there were dodgy religious types on the one side and xenophobes on the other turning it into a Muslim thing, but in the end it wasn't. To say otherwise is not having your facts straight.
It is my conviction that, the more Muslims will be able to become a member of the middle or upper classes (and for instances the Turks are very socially upwards mobile), the less of a homgenous group and therefore a thread they will become. But that, of course, is only speculation.

Quote:
and i'm not saying if it's good or bad, i only want to point out that the balance of, let's call it power, will be shifting.


Well, yes, in the end there's no influencing the flow of history. But I think it is important to try and defend what one holds dear. For me, if ever a Muslim fundamentalist government would take control of the country I lived in, even if it were to be through democracy, and would start to abolish our liberties, I would take up arms against that government. The same would go for any fundamentalist Christian or xenophobic party.

Quote:
the "you talk like a fascist" rhetoric has really been used (overused) a lot recently, also in Polish media, which i feel is quite disrespectful of the people who had to do with the real fascists.


Agreed, totally. But I think if someone does talk (a bit) like a fascist and you know that person certainly is not a fascist, I think it is okay to mention your concern.
Quote:

but you said yourself you feel it's a cheap trick.
sorry, i didn't mean to offend you.

You did not in any way!

Quote:
you mean you have two different fundamentalist Christian party? let me risk a wild guess here - did they use to be one party, but then some of the co-leaders fell out with each other and the party broke in two?


Funnily enought, that isn't true. We had three small right-wing Christian parties in Holland that were always good for 2 seats in parliament each. Two of them got together and have become more and more leftwing and progressive (that's the one who is now in our government, together with the social democrats). They are, for instance, against the death penalty, pro-immigration, very concerned about the environment etc. They are quite okay apart from the fact they are very anti-liberal.
The third one, however, could not join the fusing together with the other Christian parties because they favoured the death penalty (okay, explain it to me once more: how can you favour the death penalty while being against abortion and euthenasia at the same time?), wanted to make all the religions except the Dutch reformed church illegal and want to abolish women's rights to vote. Also, that party was started by a preacher who collaborated with the Germans during WWII. They stink, but still hold 2 seats in parliament and 5 years ago almost entered our government.
_________________
The Justified Ancient of Mu Mu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Robot Chicken Koko



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 1130
Location: gettin' my learn on

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't support gay marriage and I hate political correctness, and as a matter of fact the majority of rioters in France were Muslim, but Islam really had nothing to do with it.

Minorities do have a way of having a huge influence on a national level, and simply pointing out parliamentary numbers and demographics to try and say no, minorities, and in particular Muslim's in the Netherlands don't have power is like saying black people have no voice in America... OBVIOUSLY what you're thinking right now is of Barack Obama, the only person the media has decided, although he does not agree, is a black man in the Senate. Here we go: The government serves the people, right? Well, as things change and time goes by, things like average income, opinion, education, and so on, should level out. Right? Bzzt! Wrong. Going into story mode: My roommate, who's from Kenya, hates "Black History Month" which thankfully is over soon, more than me! His girlfriend, who is from Seattle loves it. She says its so people will acknowledge "our" presence in white America and so on and so forth. Victor doesn't like it because he's black, but who's history are we talking about? Not his... The point of that is labels. Some people think TOO MUCH about what they are. Well I'm tired of it. I live in this place called the Harlem Renaissance Center, and egos, smugness, and "hating" run rampant here. Not to go on a diatribe, but honestly, what's with being anything other than yourself, the individual. Why does everyone who lives here have an attitude problem? Why is there a painting of a slave hanging from his neck right outside my door? What's that supposed to do, make me feel bad for these people, or make me hate myself. Why should I? Should I be tolerant, or accommodate cultural practices and ideas that are not my own when those are the things that have been the greatest block to some kind of ideal state of things that can't be described universally because of things like heritage and religion. This argument does however work both ways, against Christians and Muslim's, so I'm stuck here pondering: God or no God.

Eventually Munan, and I mean this in the best possible way, maybe you'll understand why people are afraid of Islam, as it has almost taken over Europe in the past. When the Ottoman Empire was at its height and it was enslaving and forcing its religion on other cultures, particularly North Africa, it rolled over its opponents and the only reason it lost its power was because of infighting amongst Muslims and also difficulties controlling their huge slave population. Islam represents something far more "fundamental" than the "fundamental" everyone loves to attach to right-wing politics, and it is incompatible with anyone who doesn't want to be a Muslim. Wikipedia calls Islam's spread an "expansion and defense" and counters the common definition of a Jihad as just that and not a holy war. Well that's like putting a pretty dress on something hideous.individual

EDIT: I edited it six times, grammer, punktuayshun, stuff like that.
_________________
"Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Crotchfire



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 527
Location: You wouldn't believe me if I told you.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with cultural and religious diversity/tolerance is that religions can be mutually exclusive, as can cultures. You can really only be so tolerant. Many cultural identities are based on people contrasting themselves to some demonized other... It strikes me as amazing that all these cultural identities are so cherished and celebrated.

Being half-Hungarian, it takes conscious effort for me not to hate Russians. This isn't in my genetic make-up, though, this is the result of the cultural climate in the house I was raised. Ethnicity is obviously not the problem, it's the damn culture.

Then we have religion, especially the organized variety. Any religion that requires of its followers that they convert nonbelievers is dangerous. Religions that have invented Hells for all those who do not follow are dangerous, too. These are the sorts of religions that perpetuate violence.

As terrible as it sounds, I don't think free religion is the answer. Perhaps all religions which have some form of the phrase "The lives of non-believers are without value." in their sacred doctrines should be banned from civilized society. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and the plethora of other religions need not die out; they could simply declare the passages that call for violence against infidels apocrypha. But how to enact this without all the psychotic zealots deciding to martyr themselves in a showy and violent fashion? Perhaps we could engineer a virus that would kill only the fanatically self-righteous... but I digress.

Maybe I'll try and found a religion. Perhaps some will follow me. I already look like Jesus, after all.
_________________
The official MILF-masta of the AlP forums.
In addition to my well-documented exploits, my first two initials are MF. Seriously, I'm not making that up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Munan
Moderator


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 30 May 2005
Posts: 3232
Location: Living on my own

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A thoughtful reply, Koko. I will try and react to it, though I have the feeling there is an Atlantic Ocean between your and my experiences.

Koko wrote:
I don't support gay marriage and I hate political correctness


I define "political correctness" like this:

That which the political elite in power considers to be correct thinking.

Obviously, disagreeing with the powers that be on principle can never be wrong, so go on hating political correctness, but only do it out of subversity - not because it enables you to play the angry white man.

The bigger question you are unfortunately leaving unanswered is:
Why don't you support gay marriage?
(And I really hope it is because you don't support marriage in general...)

Quote:
so I'm stuck here pondering: God or no God.


I would encourage you to ponder that a little bit more. Really.

Quote:
Eventually Munan, and I mean this in the best possible way, maybe you'll understand why people are afraid of Islam, as it has almost taken over Europe in the past. When the Ottoman Empire was at its height and it was enslaving and forcing its religion on other cultures, particularly North Africa, it rolled over its opponents and the only reason it lost its power was because of infighting amongst Muslims and also difficulties controlling their huge slave population.


Although this is a one-sided representation (at the time, really the Ottoman Empire was much more enlightened than Europe), it is essentially right. But I think, if one looks at the world right now, one could hardly claim that a similar thread would come from the Muslim wordl. If any country is acting like the Ottoman Empire at the moment, it would be the USA and its allies (and I am saying that without passing any judgments, or claiming they don't have a justifiable cause or whatever... I guess it's just the way the pendula of history swings).

Quote:
Wikipedia calls Islam's spread an "expansion and defense" and counters the common definition of a Jihad as just that and not a holy war. Well that's like putting a pretty dress on something hideous.


Well, as a religious dogma, Jihad does not mean anything else than "making an effort for God", i.e. doing something that will please God.
Helping your neighbour, informing people about Islam, trying to understand the message the Koran has for us, feeding the poor, fight enironmental pollution can and have all been called 'Jihad'. In Cairo, Egypt, they had a Jihad against littering on the streets a few years ago.
For the believing Muslims I know, Jihad is something beatiful, not something hideous.

This is not saying that Muslim fundamentalists do not pervert the idea of Jihad into only meaning violent, offensive struggle (originally, a 'Holy War' - a Christian term, by the way, stemming from the days of crusades that has no Muslim translation - can only be fought by Muslims if it is on the defense. Muslim theology makes it very clear that there is nothing holy about any war, not even the ones fought by Muhammed).

All I am saying is that they don't really qualify as reliable authorities on Muslim theology as far as I am concerned.

Crotchfire wrote:
]Maybe I'll try and found a religion. Perhaps some will follow me. I already look like Jesus, after all.


So do I (see for yourself here: http://moenandar.hyves.nl/fotos/47259846/0/DV0x/#). And I have been encouraged to found a religion several times.
_________________
The Justified Ancient of Mu Mu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Robot Chicken Koko



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 1130
Location: gettin' my learn on

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's silly arguing about something as ancient and obscure (to some people) like the Ottoman Empire and I should have never brought it up because I knew this debate may deteriorate into a circus, but I think comparing it to the United States takes one hell of a leap of faith. Ottomans practically invented the land-based empire of trade, even more so some historians think than the Romans. This was done all under the banner of one religion, which they forced people to convert by either taxing them heavily for being any other religion, or stealing the children of non-converts and turning them into soldiers, the most popular example of which were Janissaries. I can't see any resemblance, except in the infighting part (Civil War, Civil Rights, Democrats vs. Republicans). Anyways...

Here'd I'd like to show I'm not always the government's good little puppet. I'm not sure Western governments know what their mission is. Take for example the Middle East. Are we there to contain and eliminate terrorism? Some people would say yes, at least that's what the governments in power are saying, what choice do they have? But is it working? Even if it isn't, can we leave? No, I don't think we can leave because all progress that has been made in the face of civil unrest and civil war would be lost, and things wouldn't have gotten any better. The government has to get better at the predicting the outcomes of its actions. Historically, the precedent for what happens when you occupy a country like Iraq has not been set, but we should have seen all of this coming. Do governments, especially mine, know they're supposed to serve the interests of the people? The greater good is such a sticky issue, because it implies that somebody is getting the shaft. I think now politicians are so obsessed with serving the interests of their constituencies that they create divisions with the policy they implement. This blind leading dominates politics on both sides of the aisle and overtures of "bi-partisan" policy, which I think is bullshit, are just for show. In the case of the Netherlands, how do you accommodate Muslim's in a Western country? In that case, I believe it is the Muslim's who "must be the change they wish to see."
_________________
"Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Munan
Moderator


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 30 May 2005
Posts: 3232
Location: Living on my own

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koko wrote:
I can't see any resemblance


Neither can I. But you compared the modern Muslim world with the Ottoman Empire and I said that if you're going to compare any modern entity to the Ottoman Empire, the USA fits the bill much better than the modern Muslim world. That was all. Washington still does not resemble the Sublime Porte very much, it just does so more than any other country in the world at the present moment (with the possible exception of China).

(Though the Ottoman religious politics were a bit different from the way you describe them and the USA could be seen as trying to force their interpretation of Freedom and Democracy on others.
"But Munan, Freedom and Democracy are good things"
Well, yes, of course they are, but the American version is flawed if you ask me and anyway, average Muslims would not believe in a lesser degree that spreading Islam is also liberating people from ignorance and a good thing on the whole than a US soldier believes spreading Freedom and Democracy is)


Quote:
In the case of the Netherlands, how do you accommodate Muslim's in a Western country?


Well, that should not be difficult, since the philosophy of Islam is one of the founding ideologies of Western society

Quote:
In that case, I believe it is the Muslim's who "must be the change they wish to see."


Of course. But are you willing to ask the same of a fundamentalist Christian who wants you to adept to their vision of a perfect state? Would you not fight (in words and - if necessary - in deeds) anyone who was trying to curtain your freedoms and what you percieve as your society's achievements.

And - again I state my point - at the moment I can only see Christian politicians nibbling away at my freedoms and our achievements in any significant (that is, through legislation) way.

Therefore, at the moment, I'm making those my main target and try to tell people who are constantly picking up fights with a (as of now) quite powerless underclass (whom we might have to deal with later on, but don't think I'm not taking any opportunity to outrage them into some thinking some sense as well) that they might need to get their priorities straight.
_________________
The Justified Ancient of Mu Mu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Alien Loves Predator Forum Index -> The Soap Box All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group