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Aramor's kiss and gender norms discussion
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hypnosys




Joined: 19 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

munan gay? you think so?... I dunno...
Actually I think that depends in what kind of drama are you involved.
If you cry watching Legally Blonde, you are certainly a fag.
If you cry watching soap opera, you are a fag.
If you watch the schlong of the next urinal guy, you are a fag
If you get aroused a little bit watching a guy, you are a fag
If you think you are not a fag, you are a fag
If you think you are a fag, you are a fag.
And the ultimate test, If you stick your finger in your ass and enjoy it, you are a Fag with capital letter.
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Munan
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blaster wrote:
Some reactions:
cfos wrote:
Urinal Etiquette: Unless at an event where there is a mass exodus (movie getting out, sports event) or where a pee trough is the only thing available, most American males will not take the urinal right next to another man (unless emergency) even if it is unoccupied. Rather, the American male will wait.

I am not sure what you mean ny "most" American males, but I happen to be an American male, and my experiences do not entirely corroborate your assertions. Although most American males will (in my experience) choose a urinal farthest away from any other male, I have never seen a male wait for a urinal when there was an unoccupied one.

cfos wrote:
Teenage Movie going: Teenage males in Paris sat right next to each other rather than having a seat between them.

The "every other seat" seating to which you allude has been an aberration in my experience. Normally I see teenage males sitting next to one another, not to mention that I engaged in the same practice as a teenager.


I would define both the urge to not use an unoccupied urinal because a guy was peeing in the urinal next to it and the urge not to sit in a chair next to your friend in a cinema but rather leave a chair empty between you as hysterical. If you have these urges, you are probably a crypto-gay in serious denial. Sorry to say this, I know I am not talking about anybody personal here (at least I hope so).

Quote:

cfos wrote:
"Drama-fags": I think across most schools in America, people that engage in Drama are considered "Drama-fags" (nothing to do with cigarettes) by those not involved in Drama. Not sure why.

That is, of course, a reflection of a long-standing, perceived connection between male homosexuals and the theater. It's a stereotype, certainly, but I find it hard to believe that you are ignorant of it.


Koko's reaction suggests it's not such a stereotype, though. But it's rather sad just the same. Theater is nice, you learn a lot from it and engaging in theater as an adolescent makes you stronger in dealing with life, imho.

As for the boy-on-boy action, I know of quite a few guys who've been there, done that just for the fun of it (i.e. they were definitely not gay). I know of at least an equal amount of guys who are disgusted by it. Oh well...

koko wrote:
very few men here participate in metrosexualism, but I do have doubts about Munan. Are you gay?


No. But if metrosexualism means 'acting gay while being 100% heterosexual', I have been known to be a bit metrosexual every now and then.
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Sal



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

finally a good concise definition of metrosexual.

*puts thick moustache on*
[heavy slav accent] in Poland, we men go out on the snow, gather in a circle and all piss together while singing smutty songs in low voices [/heavy slav accent]
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cfos



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I am not sure what you mean ny "most" American males, but I happen to be an American male, and my experiences do not entirely corroborate your assertions."

Most = many, majority, a lot. As I said, at the bottom, the examples I provided were not the best example.

"The "every other seat" seating to which you allude has been an aberration in my experience. Normally I see teenage males sitting next to one another, not to mention that I engaged in the same practice as a teenager."

I say this having lived in 5 different states across 3 different time zones for minium of 3-4 years in each. I have not lived in Chicago, only visited once (and didn't see a movie). However, Munan does find the practice (abberation or not) to be hysterical -- not your response, rather it was an abberation that didn't evoke any sort of emotion, meaning it was something odd that you see from time to time. That was the point of the example. Whether it is a common-place activity across the continental US is not the point.

"Koko's reaction suggests it's not such a stereotype, though. But it's rather sad just the same. Theater is nice, you learn a lot from it and engaging in theater as an adolescent makes you stronger in dealing with life, imho."

As I qualified, I used the word "most". Likewise, Blaster considered it a stereotype. In reply to Blasters, comment: No, I am not ignorant of it, rather the point of this was to address differences that were in part rooted in stereotypes that may (may not) be common between Americans and "Europeans". A shout out to da boyz in Chi-town! Thanks for them props!

As for Munan's opinion:

"If you have these urges, you are probably a crypto-gay in serious denial. "

As spoken by the prophets of Spinal Tap, there is a fine line between stupid and clever. For the guys that Munan knows that do these sort of things for fun, are drugs and alcohol in such short supply that there is no other outlet for fun? Where do you draw the line? How do you know that these people are not in serious denial? What makes it fun? Because it goes against social customs and norms? Is it "fun" because it is a sign of being a rebel and piercing one's ear (or both) and gettin' ink done is equated with getting the barbed wire tatoos in the 90s? Is everything else too played? Are people finally realizing that all the heavy dark, black clothing is pretty hot (temperature-wise) in the summer? DO people actually wear the outfits you see in the J. Crew Catalogue? Are people finally realizing that wearing one's pants below the ass (mostly young boys trying to fit into the rap subculture) kinda silly -- like wearing multiple swatches ("I keep this one on Hawaii time.")?

My opinion is that people are looking for shock value and to be thought of as different/funny/rebel/unique. Nobody wants to be a part of the world --we all go around trying to be "different" in some way -- whether it be clashing against the social norms or trying to be "funny" and "clever" (of course, this begs the question that if we are all truly different, then how does one live with something like genetic programming? What about the people who opt for a sex change? Doesn't that go against genetics? If that is possible then how can we be programmed? Sorry, tangent on a different arguement) So, in order to do this, people pick something they think is truly original or so in-the-face of the norms. Obviously, sexuality is always going to rank pretty high. It is something that is "learned" early in life. Much like the smell of poop and farting in public as being bad. So,is this what accounts for the fun factor? Rebellion? Or maybe, they just have gay tendencies? I dunno. Don't really care too much (aside from the philosophical discussion), to be honest. Having said that, I would suggest that the people that are doing this for the "fun" factor -- here's something that you can do and likely be amongst the first to start this new trend (schizophrenics not included). Here is what I propose: Anyone who has ever had to change a baby knows that babies think poop is the proverbial shit. They really don't think it smells bad or thinks before picking it up and throwing it. They do, of course, learn that it is bad and not socially acceptable to squat down in public and leave a steamer on the food court table. I propose that people seeking the rush of fun to start farting publically. Maybe even leave a duke in the urinal. How many of your friends do that for fun? Ok, I'm not being serious, and their are some health concerns with leaving a duke in the urinal, but I just watched clerks 2 last night and thought it was freakin hilarious and my mind has been in the gutter. DAMN you MEDIA! I am succeptable to your charms! Ok, now to get back on track... what constitutes the fun of same sex (gender issues aside) kissing... is it fun or is it sexual preference... If it is merely the act of kissing that is fun, it shouldn't matter if it is same sex, a relative, your friend's grandfather, yada yada yada. The issues I provided as examples (accurate or not) related to the preception of one's sexuality and their comfort factor with their own. As I mentioned they aren't the best examples, but:

Haven't you known people that have had children and then, one day, were gay? I'm not saying that these people were having fun previously, but there must have been some sense of denial (assuming you believe the theory that people are born a certain way -- personally, I don't buy that (see above)). Rather, I think that a person (in any number of situations) may choose to be a particular persuasion (hold partical ideas, theorys, etc) and then change their mind once or many times based on the relationship said person has with the concept of society and their place). So, then are we to assume that everything is environmental? -- look out Koko... maybe there is some geographical considerations here... (just kidding) Are there any conclusions that we can make about people doing things for fun? People choosing the urinal farthest away?
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Munan
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... wtf?!

In other news, I still think Justin Timberlake's new song is really good.
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cfos



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"... wtf?!"

Did I stutter?
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Blaster
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cfos wrote:
"... wtf?!" Did I stutter?

No, you just have a tendency to convolve all the issues on the table, to go off on tangents, and to take arguments to the extreme (which can be a valid rhetorical device, done properly). I was especially amused to by the "Aramor kissing a male friend in the name of fun"=> "people will do anything shocking for fun" => "health problems aside, taking a dump on a food court table is a valid form of personal expression" slippery slope argument, (though, admittedly, even you thought that this was extreme). It's just very difficult to respond to your post.

In other news, I sure hope that hypnosys was being sarcastic in his last post.
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Gone Retro



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hypnosys wrote:
munan gay? you think so?... I dunno...
Actually I think that depends in what kind of drama are you involved.
If you cry watching Legally Blonde, you are certainly a fag.
If you cry watching soap opera, you are a fag.
If you watch the schlong of the next urinal guy, you are a fag
If you get aroused a little bit watching a guy, you are a fag
If you think you are not a fag, you are a fag
If you think you are a fag, you are a fag.
And the ultimate test, If you stick your finger in your ass and enjoy it, you are a Fag with capital letter.

Me
Me
Not me
Just a little.
Me
Not me.
Eww
So I'm not a fag.
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wrincewind



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm. well, i can understand about the sitting next to each other thing. in my experience, it's usually because they are sharing a big bucket of popcorn, or various bags of sweets (say guy #1 has malteasers and #2 has popcorn). it's not gay!
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Smiley



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a Cliff Notes version of cfos's manifesto of gaiety?
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Blaster
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wrincewind wrote:
hmm. well, i can understand about the sitting next to each other thing. in my experience, it's usually because they are sharing a big bucket of popcorn, or various bags of sweets (say guy #1 has malteasers and #2 has popcorn). it's not gay!

The issue was not whether sitting next to another adoclescent male in the theater makes one gay, it was a matter of adolescent Amercian males thinking that is was somehow gay and thus avoiding it.

I think that another factor which has been neglected in this discussion is the American standard of personal space. When one (male or female) sits on a bus or a train, it is common not to sit next to another person if it is avoidable. This is simply a commentary on American culture. I believe that the urinal-choosing behavior is largely a relfection of this; one would not want to invade another's personal space during an activity which is generally considered personal in the society.

I do however believe that the every-other seating arrangement is not explained by this. Usually, when one attends the theater with a group, the group acts as a unit and only attempts to distance itself from those outside of the group. The behavior of the those adolescent males seems strange to me. I have only observed it a couple of times before, late at night when theaters were almost empty, and I simply ascribed it to their wanting to spread out and enjoy space which they would normally not have in a crowded movie theater.
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Crotchfire



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I don't think the unwillingness to pee next to another man at a urinal is a sign of latent homosexuality.

Myself, I just have difficulty peeing if I feel like someone is paying attention to me pee.

Performance anxiety happens to a lot of guys, ya know.

Oh, and the kissing thing...

Honestly, it depends on how much of a pedestal you put on kissing. In all honesty,

(PERSONAL territory here, why I share this on the intarwebz, iono)

for me, french kissing is a deeply sexual thing, and when I'm physically intimate with a woman, kissing heightens the experience for me.

Now, as such, I would have trouble french kissing a dude because I only really engage in that sort of deep kissing during the act of sex, and such a thing would make me say "...dude? No. This isn't BASEketball."

As for Aramor, if you don't really attach any sort of significance or association to deep kissing, then it doesn't make you gay to enjoy frenching another guy.

What you told your girlfriend, though, was that kissing is utterly meaningless to you...

...and it therefore follows that kissing your girlfriend is utterly meaningless to you as well...

...and if your girlfriend attaches any sort of significance to kissing, then she's going to be a tad irritated as a result. She'll think: did kissing me mean as little to him as kissing his friend?

Yes, I do know that the syllogism I created above isn't sound. However, to the armchair logician, it will make perfect sense, and in my experience, young women tend not to be purely logical (older women are better at that... and many other things).
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Blaster
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, Crotch, you put your disclaimer at the end of your post. And here I was going to point out that a given act can have different significance depending on context.
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hypnosys




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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gone Retro wrote:
hypnosys wrote:
munan gay? you think so?... I dunno...
Actually I think that depends in what kind of drama are you involved.
If you cry watching Legally Blonde, you are certainly a fag.
If you cry watching soap opera, you are a fag.
If you watch the schlong of the next urinal guy, you are a fag
If you get aroused a little bit watching a guy, you are a fag
If you think you are not a fag, you are a fag
If you think you are a fag, you are a fag.
And the ultimate test, If you stick your finger in your ass and enjoy it, you are a Fag with capital letter.

Me
Me
Not me
Just a little.
Me
Not me.
Eww
So I'm not a fag.


Actually you are just a fag in lower case... =P
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
No. But if metrosexualism means 'acting gay while being 100% heterosexual', I have been known to be a bit metrosexual every now and then.


Where can I get some of this diction? Absolutely PERFECT definition of metroSEXualism.
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Blaster
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koko wrote:
Where can I get some of this diction? Absolutely PERFECT definition of metro SEXualism.
(obnoxious sizing removed)
No, not really. Metrosexualism was about keeping one's appearance in such a way that it was somewhat consistent with a particular homosexual stereotype.
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hypnosys




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Male's room Etiquette:
Here is the educational video directly from the Department of Immigration and Naturalization Service of the US government.
I found it in their classified servers and uploaded in youtube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ862nn-Efo

Wink
Have fun

(American Urinal customs are described throughly... =P)

PS: To Green Card applicants: They will issue a temporary Alien Permit until you take the male's room etiquette test.
It is said that if you take the optional course "Defensive Urinal Techniques" you'll get a 10% off in your life insurance and a free candy.
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cfos



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Is there a Cliff Notes version of cfos's manifesto of gaiety?"

Too funny. *L*

It wasn't meant to be a manifesto of gaiety, rather a treatise on cultural differences. The main points:

1. Americans and Europeans differ (duh!). This is a good scenario: what would constitute "gay-ish" behavior? Example: Europeans would more readily say that a same-sex kiss can have little or no meaning whereas Americans would likely jump on the gay band-float if the kiss occurs between men.

2. My personal opinion is that those that engage in same-sex kissing (or other like behaviors) do so, not necessarily for "fun" but rather for the shock value and to demonstrate some form of unique-ness (which may be defined as "fun"?). The desire to be "different" or to be thought of as "unique" is becoming increasingly difficult because piercings, ink and other forms of expresison are becoming more common-place and it is harder to separate oneself from the masses.

Personally, I don't think Aramor is gay ("Not that there is anything wrong with that") nor do I think Munan is of that persuasion. I just think that this is an interesting case where you can definately gauge differences in how people approach a given situation.
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Khushi



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aramor the Nobel Whore wrote:
Khushi wrote:
For real?!

... that's pretty hot.


Yeah, well... just be open-minded enough and you'll have no problem doing stuff like that... unlike other people here...

Anyhoo... uhm... Munan, I'll do my best to follow that advice.


Ugh. Double standards annoy me.

No one has a problem with two straight girls who are best friends and kiss each other (or even go farther) so why is there a problem with guys kissing?

@ Munan... I'm flattered.
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Blaster
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Khushi wrote:
No one has a problem with two straight girls who are best friends and kiss each other (or even go farther) so why is there a problem with guys kissing?

Well, it all started with the trial of Oscar Wilde...
[/semi-humorous response mode]
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Aramor



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol, how many topics of my own do I have now? I mean topics of my own as in "I made a post about something that happened to me and people reacted enough on it for the mods to make a new topic for it"...

Anyhoo... uhm... Crotch, I tried to make clear to her that kissing that particular boy (or any boy at all as far as I know) didn't mean anything at all... but since that didn't work I just told her I felt really guilty... blahblahblah...
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Sal



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aramor the Nobel Whore wrote:
but since that didn't work I just told her I felt really guilty... blahblahblah...


oh absolutely, that's the only strategy that works, as far as my knowledge of the field goes.

[sorta Obi-Wan voice but not really]you have learnt much, my friend.[/sorta Obi-Wan voice but not really]
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You think I can get away with cheating with that tactic? Razz
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Samy



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just tell her it was during a drinking game, that's how i got away with it with my ex. although the fact that we're not together anymore probably takes away most of my credibility Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Khushi wrote:
Ugh. Double standards annoy me.

No one has a problem with two straight girls who are best friends and kiss each other (or even go farther)...
::raises hand:: I do, actually. Rolling Eyes

One or the other of them should probably be kissing me. (I'm a straight guy)

Khushi wrote:
...so why is there a problem with guys kissing?

I don't have a problem with homosexuality (or heterosexuality, for that matter,) but I don't see two girls getting it on as the Holy Grail of sexual activity that a lot of other guys seem to. All things considered, I'd rather not watch anyone sucking face. It always looks... awkward to me. Not quite a train wreck, maybe just a derailing.

And Munan, I think that it's pretty cool that you kept the letters; people don't write enough these days. Letters last longer than emails and text messages, and even have historical significance. And you usually put more thought into a letter than the other types of communication.
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