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Munan
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

darkfox wrote:
Personally, I don't see any problem in what you are arguing about. I think everyone has to realize that the Bible is just a *proof* of God's existence, AND his message to the people that he is here, and he cares. Most of the things in Bible are just an explanation of how do the things work. The problem is, most people don't want to hear from God and they just don't understand that all he wants is to re-connect the link between him and every single one of us (as we have seen the man has divided from God as shown in Genesis. Which is true. Look at ourselves). The trouble is, that people don't understand it and they seek for some *other* solution. They just don't understand he wants to see us all happy, but this ultimately means coming to him. Of course, because he created this world, and he let even you and me come to life. He knows everything about you, not even what you do, but also what you think and what you plan to do. He wants to help you solve your problems, he wants to help you to fulfil your dreams, if they wouldn't hurt someone else. He is not some being to suppress your individuality, he is the ultimate creator of this world but he gave us freedom, if we respect just some basic rules - but for our sake! He wants to be a part of the life of everyone, you just have to ask him.


Very Happy
Well, that's very nice for you. Put it in a song and I'd probably buy it, since I - for some unknown reason and much to the disturbance of those close to me - have a perverse preference for Christian songs Don Moen-style.

What is less nice, is the fact that you apparently seem to be of the opinion that you are morally superior to those who don't hold the same beliefs as you, suggesting that those who don't believe in God have no morals at all.

darkfox wrote:

If this power behind all doesn't care for us, the life does have no sense. Mankind is lucky just to exist and have such a high intelligence as it has (or has it?). You can kill everyone you want just because you don't like him, when all the people finally realize it, there will come a quick end.


Don't try to convert me or agree with you - proselytization doesn't work on me. Just don't go around insulting me, because, like every human being, I do not like to be insulted. I do not believe in this "caring power" you speak of, but I have very strict moral codes and do not think it's okay to kill anyone. In fact, I sometimes think my moral codes are stricter than the ones many Christians seem to have. However, when it comes to morals, believers and non-believers are equally worthy or unworthy and anybody saying something different is basically making a comment of the same value as a racist comment.

Also, you do realise, don't you, that everything you claim about the bible could be said about the Holy Qur'an, the Tao Tse Tsing, the Vedas, the sayings of the Buddha etc. etc. etc.
Now, I'm sure that you have a thousand million reasons why what you say is true about the bible and not about those other 'heretic' holy writings, so don't bother posting them to me, I care equally for them all and am not the one you want or can convince. My point is that those who believe in the other writings would have a thousand million reasons as well as to why it's true about their holy scriptures and not about the bible. See? In the end, it's all a matter of belief - not fact. Fact is the kind of stuff scientists deal with.

Evolution theory, as you point out correctly, cannot explain everything, so far. Now it may very well be that the final explanation is intelligent design, but as long as there is no falsifiable (if you don't know the word, look it up before you answer this part of my post) way of theorising the existance of an intelligent force behind creation, that intelligent force has no bussiness in science class. Until a falsifiable theory for the existence of that intelligent force has been discovered, its existence may very well be true -but a matter of belief (a belief that, apparently, makes you very happy, something that I respect and am glad about, but I do demand the same respect and if possible even gladness for the fact that I do not hold the same beliefs as you do) and not of science.

Now, you'd probably have a thousand million reasons (a) why the above opinion is misguided or (b) there actually is a falsifiable theory for the existence of God. The problem is: I've read quite a lot of books on the subject, pro and con ID. I even teach an annual lecture on the subject here at the university where I work. So, I'm afraid I've pretty much made my mind up (as summarized in the above little paragraph about the place of ID in science) and find it unlikely that a poster at this forum will get me to change my mind, seeing that so many brilliant minds already failed. So, you made your point, I made mine.

Tea, anyone?
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, Tinkerjeep, you are living proof of your sig.
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkfox wrote:
I think everyone has to realize that the Bible is just a *proof* of God's existence, AND his message to the people that he is here, and he cares.
how can the bible be proof??? just because anne rice wrote some books about them doesn't mean vampires exist, same thing goes with the bible. it was obviously written by humans whoclaim they were talked to or connected to god. doesn't mean they did or are. they could just have smoked a little too much herb or had a cup of wine too much. the bible didn't just drop from the sky, people wrote it over years and years, it was started by people in slavery. maybe they just created themselves something to hold on to, then again maybe not. i'm not gonna judge on whether there is a god or not, i personally believe there isn't. but i think saying the bible is proof of gods existence is plain ridiculous!
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:

What is less nice, is the fact that you apparently seem to be of the opinion that you are morally superior to those who don't hold the same beliefs as you, suggesting that those who don't believe in God have no morals at all.


Huh, who told you that? Shocked You probably did not read, or didn't understand me well. I'm telling you, that there is one base, one power from which everything else came and IT is (of course, when it has created everything) the key to what is "moral" or "immoral" or whatever. And I NEVER NEVER NEVER said that Christians are morally superior to anyone, and I will NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER say it, because it's not true! Unfortunately, Christians, even as the ones who know the truth, most of them don't behave like it. And it is NOT about being marked as a Christian by some church here on the Earth, but about truly believing (ha, here goes the word) and also living my life according to it.

Munan wrote:
Also, you do realise, don't you, that everything you claim about the bible could be said about the Holy Qur'an, the Tao Tse Tsing, the Vedas, the sayings of the Buddha etc. etc. etc.


That's what I suggested pointing out that without God there is no "universal" code of what is right or what is wrong. There is too many different points of view of this world, you have different philosophies, different religions and so on, but ultimately, there is of course one truth. I think we will all agree on that, right? There is only one truth about how this universe has been created, how this world came to the shape how it is now. One might think it happened like this, another might think that it happened like that. But the truth is only one. It is as if you secretly flipped a coin and then asked some people if it was heads or tails. One might thing heads, the other might thing tails, but there is only one truth and only you know it and they wouldn't know if you don't tell them. So it goes like this: If God does not exist, then there is no problem. But if he does, he would probably let us know if he cares. So, did he? The answer is: of course he did! You see, the point of view is absolutely the other way around.

Munan wrote:
Just don't go around insulting me, because, like every human being, I do not like to be insulted.


I guess this was just like forewarning if I planned to insult you, otherwise, I have no idea about insulting you, or did I? I hope not. If I did, please tell me how, I certainly didn't want to.

Munan wrote:
I do not believe in this "caring power" you speak of, but I have very strict moral codes and do not think it's okay to kill anyone. In fact, I sometimes think my moral codes are stricter than the ones many Christians seem to have. However, when it comes to morals, believers and non-believers are equally worthy or unworthy and anybody saying something different is basically making a comment of the same value as a racist comment.


About the believers and nonbelievers, I definitely agree with you! As you may have seen above, I think ALL humans are equal, being whatever religion or philosophy they want. The only thing is, what is really *right* and *wrong*. A Hindu tells you that killing a cow is wrong. A butcher tells you that there is nothing wrong about killing a cow and that apart from that he never killed anyone. And then you go and meet some General who otherwise doesn't steal, cheat, even lie, he might even be a vegetarian, and he might tell you that all the things named above are wrong but killing people is right as long as they are your enemy and are threatening your country. And now, what.

Munan wrote:
Now, I'm sure that you have a thousand million reasons why what you say is true about the bible and not about those other 'heretic' holy writings, so don't bother posting them to me, I care equally for them all and am not the one you want or can convince. My point is that those who believe in the other writings would have a thousand million reasons as well as to why it's true about their holy scriptures and not about the bible. See? In the end, it's all a matter of belief - not fact. Fact is the kind of stuff scientists deal with.


Everyone might have thousand million reasons (or even more) and I also don't want to debate endlessly, after all, if you don't want to believe me, you wouldn't believe (see? God gave us free will even to reject him, he never wanted to force us into anything). I just want to give you "fair chance", to know all the facts, so if it is YOU who wants to ask something or have something clarified, please ask that. There are always many reasons why people disagree with Christianity or many things they have against it, the shame is, they don't care to get things straight. And it is not about saying "oh no, my neighbor is Christian he's such a dumb, the Christians are all terrible" - as I said, Christians are all just people and the only "bonus" they got is that they believed in the true God. And it's not any privilege, many people have been given the opportunity but they rejected it on their own will. And btw I'd certainly not say any thing like in the example before "they are all stupid and terrible" about Muslims, Hindus, Jews or every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue Very Happy (who readeth, understand)

[quote:"Munan"] So, I'm afraid I've pretty much made my mind up (as summarized in the above little paragraph about the place of ID in science) and find it unlikely that a poster at this forum will get me to change my mind, seeing that so many brilliant minds already failed.[/quote]

Exactly, I'll tell you something, no proof like that can convince you 100%, nevertheless: it is up to you to choose, to try or not to try, God is here even NOW (turn around) and he listens so if you want, you might just ask him if he really exists and if he really is here. And I GUARANTEE that if you REALLY want to know the truth, he will show you the truth. But only if you really want it! If you want to avoid or hide, don't bother. But if he exists, he'd show you if you asked him, right?
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, Darkfox, if I want to hear someone proselytize, I'll open the door when the jehova's witnesses come by. I thought we were trying to have a logical discussion here.


Darkfox wrote:
Yeah, that's just it. Those things you have pointed out (and I think it speaks good of you that you are not author of this, because this is really ridiculous) really might be, and probably would be (and even are, if I think about the person who wrote it) considered immoral or ridiculous by anyone with half of a brain. But the person who does have the whole brain, not just half of it, would read these things in context (and, just as someone said, context is everything ). Maybe it would suffice one verse before and one verse after the one mentioned, or sometimes even just the verse mentioned, because the comments are sometimes really ridiculous.

Oh, so sometimes you have to take the work literally, but sometimes it must all be taken with a grain of salt? Hm...how conveniently inconsistent. And I suppose that you know just when to employ which strategy, right?


Darkfox wrote:
I think everyone has to realize that the Bible is just a *proof* of God's existence

I think Samy already covered this one.



Darkfox wrote:
[God] knows everything about you, not even what you do, but also what you think and what you plan to do. He wants to help you solve your problems, he wants to help you to fulfil your dreams, if they wouldn't hurt someone else.

See, now I am a little confused here: is this the same ancient tribal deity of the Isrealites, who was primarily concerned with protecting his chosen people and smiting, or is this some new age "cool" God.



Darkfox wrote:
Christians, even as the ones who know the truth


Darkfox wrote:
as I said, Christians are all just people and the only "bonus" they got is that they believed in the true God.

I must admit, I am a bit torn here. Although you didn't take the approach that all world religions are just different perceptions of the same thing, you took the opposite (and sickeningly arrogant) approach by claiming that your god is the only true one. Isn't that just so convenient and lucky for you? It's a good thing that you weren't born in another part of the world, or else you might be worshipping the wrong deity!

Maybe I should also point out that when yahweh or elohim or whatever you want to call him first came around, he was just one god among many other Mesopotamian gods. It wasn't until later that his followers got on their high horses and claimed that the others were false. But hey, what's a little revisionist theology?


Darkfox wrote:
God is here even NOW (turn around) and he listens so if you want, you might just ask him if he really exists and if he really is here. And I GUARANTEE that if you REALLY want to know the truth, he will show you the truth. But only if you really want it! If you want to avoid or hide, don't bother. But if he exists, he'd show you if you asked him, right?

I turned around and asked. Nothing happened.
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I turned around and asked too, but the polar bear that lives in my backroom closet slapped the piss out of me when I asked it.
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahahaha, my polar bear doesn't ever slap me.



Hahahahahahaha!!!
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the dinosaurs?!
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ipsa wrote:
What about the dinosaurs?!


Dinosaurs are in the Bible if you want them to be.
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like polar bears...
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Munan
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And so do I. The first play I wrote had a polar bear in it in quite a crucial role.

darkfox wrote:
I have no idea about insulting you, or did I? I hope not. If I did, please tell me how, I certainly didn't want to.


What's so difficult to understand about it? If you say God is "the key to what is "moral" or "immoral"", than those who don't believe in God do not possess that key, those who do, have it. And that is - apart from being obvious rubbish - insulting to those who don't believe, who, according to you, could just as well go around killing all those they don't like.

Quote:
If God does not exist, then there is no problem. But if he does, he would probably let us know if he cares. So, did he? The answer is: of course he did!


*sigh* you don't get it, do you? All the religious people from all religions in the world would agree with you on this. Problem is, they would all say God (or the Gods) let us know he (they) care(s) in their religious scripture. There is no objective method to decide who is right, but then again, people of different religions would claim they have an objective method through which they can establish that their scripture is the right one. Then there is no objective method to establish which method is the most objective, but... and so on, and so further.


darkfox wrote:
God is here even NOW (turn around) and he listens so if you want, you might just ask him if he really exists and if he really is here. And I GUARANTEE that if you REALLY want to know the truth, he will show you the truth. But only if you really want it! If you want to avoid or hide, don't bother. But if he exists, he'd show you if you asked him, right?


Oh, I'm sorry, didn't I mention? I was a believer. God and me were on quite friendly terms and I had some damn good conversations with God. I agree with you, He will always listen. Anyhow, our relationship got a bit troubled when God started to realise He was just a figment of my imagination. At first we tried to work things out by pretending it was actually the other way around (viz. I was a figment of God's imagination), but in the end we just had to let each other go.

You know that moment newborn Christians often describe, the moment they let God into their lifes? The joy, the peace, the being-thrilled-ness of it all? Well, I had that experience the moment I let God go. I'm a newborn non-believer.

But He's still got a special place in my heart Wink

So, your one truth thing doesn't work on me. One truth, yes, but as Kant already said, mankind has no access to das ding an sich. I'm a postmodernist (oh horror of horrors, I hear people scream - but yes, there's still a few of us around) and for me, God exists and He doesn't exist, according to the historic and semiotic situation I'm in at the moment. Or the kind of tea I drank in the morning (Yasmine tea is a good God-accelerator).

So, let me have my little proselytising moment here. Do you want to find joy? Do you want to find peace with life, the universe and all the rest? Do you want to be thrilled by a new experience of the truth as fragmentarising into billions of interpretations of that truth? Then let God go, let Him go, tell Him it isn't Him, it's just that you've evolved, you've changed, tell Him you're a bastard if you think that will make Him feel better - I know the sad puppy eyes He can give when you've reached this moment in your relationship with Him -, but let Him go, say that you still can be friends but that you have to move on, start a new phase in your life.

Ipsa wrote:
What about the dinosaurs?!

Please. That one was covered a long time ago!
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
...
Ipsa wrote:
What about the dinosaurs?!

Please. That one was covered a long time ago!


More here Wink scroll upwards a few posts.
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol, classic aLp-moment!
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blaster wrote:
Yes, I obviously chose the negative portrayals of God from the Bible. That was a point. I was trying to show that many things from the Bible would be considered immoral or ridiculous by anyone with half of a brain. You would choose to ignore those points yet maintain an unswerving faith in the account of creation, despite the fact that they derive from the very same source? How selective of you.

Thank you for bringing my sig to attention. However, I do not see how you can espouse the view which it represents while simultaneously defending a literal interpretation of (some conveniently-chosen parts of)the Bible.

How is anyone supposed to take you seriously if you contradict your own arguments?

You can keep your cogntive dissonance, thanks.


I'll sum all this up into one package - The debate between Creationism and Evolution has become your direct link to your own hatred of God. You have questioned, attacked, and redirected everything I have posted as it is relevant to creationism as an attack against God. Instead of sticking to the pure accounts of either doctrine, you constantly try to get into a battle regarding the existance or the rightness of God. Every single debate I've ever gotten involved in concerning this matter and the subject of human abortion versus adption has ended up this same way. Those that embrace Evolution or abortion, do so, not for any logical reason, but because they hate God. This is sad. I'd like to know why you focus on the negative side of God. If I argued that Allah created the world, or another deity not related to Christianity, I'd guess I wouldn't have nearly the same opposition. Why? Because there is an anti-Christian bias in most places around the world...and especially here. I just want to know why you hate God so much...each of you.
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blaster wrote:
Oh, so sometimes you have to take the work literally, but sometimes it must all be taken with a grain of salt? Hm...how conveniently inconsistent. And I suppose that you know just when to employ which strategy, right?


I'm not sure you understood, or maybe I didn't understand your post above: all I said was, that that long - kind of - "article" absolutely ignores context, and I mean even when you read the verses mentioned, and just let's say one verse before and one verse after, you must realize that the comments in the article are really nothing much intelligent. My vote for: context is everything (c) Wink So I don't see what are you having trouble with.

Munan wrote:
If you say God is "the key to what is "moral" or "immoral"", than those who don't believe in God do not possess that key, those who do, have it. And that is - apart from being obvious rubbish - insulting to those who don't believe, who, according to you, could just as well go around killing all those they don't like.


Ah, I already told that, I think at least two times, so again: I don't think Christians or whatever are superior to anyone. And I still don't get it why... wait, I think I get it now. Yeeah, you think that by saying "without God" I mean "not being a Christian", right? Very Happy Oh no, that's just the trouble. I mean it just at it reads. I mean that if God doesn't exist, we have nothing to define what is "right" or "wrong". Just like that. But if something like him exists, because it created this world, it probably knows the best what was the primal intention in this universe, so it probably is the one to choose what is right or wrong, am I thinking logically?

Blaster wrote:
See, now I am a little confused here: is this the same ancient tribal deity of the Isrealites, who was primarily concerned with protecting his chosen people and smiting, or is this some new age "cool" God.


No, he is still the same, the only one who created this universe, then created life on this planet, then people... The only change is about his approach to people. If you had to explain to a 3-year old child and to an adult how the diesel motor works, you'd probably choose different ways of explanation, right? So when God talked to people in ancient times, if he wanted to speak not just to some brilliant individuals but wanted to speak to more people in general, so that his message would stay with the people, he had to use different approach. He wanted to slowly reconnect the broken bonds between him and mankind. You can see it for example in the Old/New testament commandments: first God gave the commandment just not to kill, and it was quite enough for the people to keep it, but it was sufficent at the time just if they tried not to kill each other if they could. But when Jesus came, it was the time to bring it more deeper, and he says that even hating someone is wrong and that you'd better try to forgive. So we are moving from what we can do physically (not to kill) to our own hearts, because if I forgive someone, I'd probably not kill him, and even better, we might become friends.
And about the chosen people - this is also something to the subject if you think that I am telling "some people being better than the others" - God had chosen Abraham (and those who were born from, or followed him) because he was very close to the image God originally had in mind - a man, but with no wrong deeds after him. You see Abraham didn't know God at all, his father was an idol-maker, but Abraham was o.k. because of what he was like and God knew he could rely on Abraham. And he wanted to start through him to attempt to re-connect himself to people in a much larger scale than just one-by-one person, he wanted to connect to him a whole nation.
So as you can see, God cares for heart, not for who is or is not currently a Christian or whatever. And sometimes it even is not what people can see: E.g. the people Jesus has chosen as his apprentices were nothing special at first. Matthew, for example, was a publican. He accepted bribes and in fact, he stole money. But when God speaks to a man it means that he knows that even though this man might be not at all perfect, he can change. He sees what is hidden inside the man. The high priests in Israel at Jesus' age, although they were from the "chosen nation" and they were supposed to be the first ones to greet him, rejected him because of their arrogance. Which is the same problem, unfortunately, among even Christians this time, although Jesus directly encourages all people for just the opposite.
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tip: attacking a person who espouses a viewpoint does not invalidate the viewpoint. It might call the character of the arguer into question, and if that's the goal, then it might succeed.

However, to criticize someone's argument by attacking his motivation for making such an argument does absolutely nothing to refute the argument. Nothing.

For example: saying something akin to "Those that embrace Evolution or abortion, do so, not for any logical reason, but because they hate God."

Ok. What if they hate God? Logically, whether someone hates or loves God is totally irrelevant to whether his argument has merit. It might have motivated him to create the argument, but regardless, you have done nothing to advance your own argument.

You have merely resorted to the cheap tricks of politicians. Yes, it's very effective to convince a crowd of uneducated people that a person is wrong because he/she has a quality that the crowd dislikes.

"If the arguer is biased on the issue of his argument, then his argument is wrong."

There is not a sane logician in the world who would buy that.

Oh, and please keep in mind that I have never mentioned my religious views. Nor will I. It just gives people another grounds upon which to commit the fallacy I just described. So, Tink, I might have the same religious views as you. Note that I haven't even given an opinion on this topic. I'm just criticizing your argument.
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, but the whole journey was to get from point A- "the rightness of sociel Darwinism" in the original question I put to Amyltrer... to point B- the rightness of the principles of Darwin versus Christianity...to point C- the tangent of whether Darwin and God's word can coexist logically...back to point D- which was an eventuality- the rightness of God versus the rightness of humanism in the form of the creation account versus the Evolutionary account of the beginning of the world....to point E- where we are now...Why do so many people embrace non-Christian beliefs based on emotion versus logic - my strong feeling on this is because they hate God on a personal level. I was originally asking amyltrer these questions and PMing her because I misunderstood her statement regarding another member's statements regarding who chooses who lives and who dies. I learned that amyltrer does not believe anything Darwin wrote. But the subject had been broached and Creationism was soon attacked vehemently by blaster, many others jumped aboard. So I figured why waste a good argument if it can get to the crux of the matter -personal belief in ploitics, science, and morals based on rejection of God.
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Samy



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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm, what if i tell you there is no rejection of god, just no god in the first place? i believe that we don't need a god to tell us what's right and wrong, i think that humans are quite capable of knowing just by themselves. other mammals don't kill each other off for no reason even though they have no religion, and we are also just mammals. i respect people who believe in god or whatever they want to believe in. what i don't respect is people saying their religion is the true one, because that is spitting on millions of people all over the world. you can not know that your religion is the right one, you can only believe it. i think religion is a great way for people to find strength, just as belonging to any group, be it metal-fans, punks or just about any circle of individuals you feel comfortable in. we just choose whatever system of finding strength we want, to be able to continue our lives. i choose friends, people i love and know will support me come what me come what may. you choose god. there is absolutely no difference except for the fact that some religious people have decided that their way is the right way, which is insulting to everybody who feels differently.
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Blaster
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Ah, but the whole journey was to get from point A- "the rightness of sociel Darwinism" in the original question I put to Amyltrer... to point B- the rightness of the principles of Darwin versus Christianity...to point C- the tangent of whether Darwin and God's word can coexist logically...back to point D- which was an eventuality- the rightness of God versus the rightness of humanism in the form of the creation account versus the Evolutionary account of the beginning of the world....to point E- where we are now...Why do so many people embrace non-Christian beliefs based on emotion versus logic - my strong feeling on this is because they hate God on a personal level. I was originally asking amyltrer these questions and PMing her because I misunderstood her statement regarding another member's statements regarding who chooses who lives and who dies. I learned that amyltrer does not believe anything Darwin wrote. But the subject had been broached and Creationism was soon attacked vehemently by blaster, many others jumped aboard. So I figured why waste a good argument if it can get to the crux of the matter -personal belief in ploitics, science, and morals based on rejection of God.

Yes, great job furthering your crusade. Forgive me the following, which ostensibly verges on ad hominem: I really wanted to keep things on the level here and to maintain a logical discussion based upon the original parameters. But such a thing is nigh impossible when some of the interlocutors have no concept of logic, and think nothing of commiting fallacies (not to mention outright proselytizing). In such circumstances, I am forced to be more directly critical (of fundamentalist Christians, in this case), and the discussion devolves.

I suppose this is a valid lesson: skew all issues and ignore valid points, and maybe your opponents will tire of the "debate," allowing you to "win."
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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blaster, for wanting to keep things all logical and stuff, who, besides you kept trying to derail the argument by preemptively bashing organized religeon, fundamentalist Christians, The Bible, and the judgement and character of God.
I was aiming at you since you displayed the most hostility to this subject IE: that there is a God and He created stuff. further, I know that if you accept that premise, then you must accept that God has a plan for His creations by the the same principal since the Bible has a common thread going throughout its first book, Genesis, AT LEAST, which tells the story of God's plans, "agenda", and jugdes sin as bad, and through its merits the human race has earned the damnation of pain, mortality, and Hell. But He also offers sanctification. Later in diferent books along the same thread, God, through Christ Jesus offers salvation from Hell. The story goes on and does have a happy ending...but you reject it. And you reject it strongly, even with your last post you avoid the subject. I know you have to have good reasons for your P.O.V. I just want to know what they are. I see alot of anger in you and the others here who openly deny God even exists.

I realize full well I cannot argue you into converting. That's about as effective as conversions to Islam at the point of a sword, Christ's arguing with the Early Church of Israel. I realize it takes change of heart on the inside to accept Jesus Christ. I just want to know what your reasons are for your beliefs.
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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, never mind. Bernie told me you all have been whining about me and my offensive posts, so I gotta leave. Feel free to trash me when I'm gone. Same goes for my religeon. I won't be here to oppose your voices. Thanks for loving the freedom of speech so much.
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Samy



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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

glad that's over Laughing
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Munan
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samy wrote:
glad that's over Laughing


Well then, let me - in conclusion - quote Robbie Williams' lyrics to his new hit, which are quite appropriate for this thread:

Robbie Williams wrote:
Oh it hurts when you're too blind to see
Please don't read my mind, I tell the truth to me

(...)
Hush hush hush
To speak is a sin
And neither of us need rescuing
Just relax
It's what Jesus would do
We're made in his image baby
Let's ride this thing through

Oh it hurts when you're to blind to see
What about us? Well it was just for me

(...)

Sin sin sin
Look where we've been
And where we are tonight
Hate the sin not the sinner
I'm just after a glimmer of love
And life deep inside

It's love's great sex joy
I love you, you love my hate
And it feels inside
Feels inside
Feels inside

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Darkfox



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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Post scriptum:

Well, it's always better to scratch it rather than constantly piss off someone. Anyway PM if you want me to pray for you or ask about something.

*thread finally closed*
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siliconsara



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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woo, drama.

Well, tinkerjeep seemed to be pretty nice on my blog, but I guess there's more than one side to him. Oh well. I don't think me and him would get along anyway since I am not Christian, and I always question the existence of God or any higher single power.

All I am going to say is that I agree with complexnumbers. Evolution explains how life got to where it is today, but doesn't explain the origin, the spark that created it. That's just something that we humans may never understand. I believe in evolution, but I know that I will continue to search to find my own explanation for the spark that created life to get evolution going.
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