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Simon_Says



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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
What about the "fall of comunism"? All those ex russian satalite countries who are now "free"? Are they better off now? Can you honestly judge with an unbiased eye?

Alot better. Trust me. I'm the son of polish emigrants, who absolutely hated the communist system. The fall of communism was a good thing.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
On to question 5 - I find it hypocritical of those who start claiming that human presence on Earth is the worst thing to happen to it and then they espouse the wackiness that human beings need to become extinct...yet they aren't willing to stand by their ludicrous rants and remove themselves first. Whether some people want to call this Nazi-like or not...its name calling. Be opposed to the idea or practice, people, not the name its called by.
I just laugh at people who call humanity the planet's scourge, hyprocrites or not, seriously, that's a good one.
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Aramor



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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Q4- I agree, we don't/won't have global peace,unless drastic measures are taken. But what price is peace worth...your freedom? Your voice? Your choice of beliefs in religeon? Where do we draw the line between killing badguys to hopefully set up a stronger, more level headed government in an unstable nation in an unstable area of the globe...and a one-world-governement that, out of necessity, squelches the voice of desenters.


Well, the way I see world peace is probably impossible to achieve with the current world's mentality... you know, everyone's happy, no fighting...

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Q5- I don't do much web-jargon with all the anagrams and initials so you lost me there, but I'll focus on your answer- So aside from waiting around for a "natural cleansing of the planet" what is your fall back plan for ridding the planet of our scourge? And when/if the ice age comes in your life time, say next week...should you be the one frozen to death along with your family and friends, or just other people who you don't know?


OMFGWTFBBQTXT = Oh my fucking God, what the fuck, barbeque, text...

Anyhoo, my fall back plan would be to achieve global domination and then execute everyone... but that's near impossible...

And well, if we had an Ice Age, I'll ofcourse try to survive. But if I die, then so be it...
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep, first of all: kindly use the edit button instead of double-posting all the time.

Secondly, what has discussing the second world war to do with talking about the war in Iraq as a possible model for a war in Iran? I mean, there is no way in hell you're going to be able to draw any significant parallels between WWII and that so called "coalition of the willing" attacking Iraq.
A few days ago, on war memorial day, I was silent for two minutes for those who were killed in WWII. I find it an insult to their memory that WWII is now used to justify the war in Iraq.

But anyway, concentrating on a minor detail:
Tinkerjeep wrote:
Did we get anything from [controlling Germany]?


Well, how about:

- a market for your products
- an ally in the cold war
- an assurance that something like WWII and the related economic collapse and thread of nazism would not happen again?

That is definitely not to say WWII should not have been fought the way it has been fought by the US. It is just to say that altruism has almost never been a reason to fight/occupy a country.

Also, you seem to link Al Qa'ida with Iraq. If you truly think so, you're truly confused. No one hated each other as much as the religious fundamentalists of Al Qa'ida and the secular national-socialist regime of Hussein's Ba'ath party. ONLY the fall of Saddam Hussein made it possible for Iraq to be flooded with islamist terrorists the way it is now. Thanks to the US invasion, indeed.

The same goes for Iran, by the way, since that's a shi'a Muslim country and those who adhere to Al Qa'ida's Islamism HATE shi'a Muslims.

But of course, might the US decide to invade Iran, it might actually solve this century-old antagonism between wahhabi/salafi Muslims and shi'a Muslims. That would truly be an extraordinary example of 'uniting people' by giving them a common enemy.

I know what I'm talking about, I'm a Muslim myself.

Quote:
What about the hardline nazis regaining power in newly Unified Germany?


WTF?! What are you talking about? Extreme right-wingers are as proliferent in the US as in Germany. They are in no way "regaining power" in Germany (though these kind of groups are always a cause for concern, of course). Last time neo-nazis had a demonstration in Berlin, there were ten times as many people participating in a demonstration against neo-nazism.
And to then link that to the fall of communism...that's as weird as it is completely missing the point. Excuse me, but the way you describe Europe sounds completely outlandish to these European ears of mine.

([cough] after 15 years still talking about "newly unified Germany" is a bit odd as well, isn't it?[/cough])

Also... If I understand you correctly, it's a good thing the dictator Saddam Hussein is chased away, but it's not good communism (a dicatorial system) fell? I mean, dude...
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay Tinkerjeep asked me about money being the root of all evil...

Listen. Everything has to do with money. People need it, people give it away, and people take it away. I said that money is the root of all evil because it is! Money is the reason why people are in poverty, people kill each other over money, people steal money.

If the US was the land of opportunity no one in america would be poor or homeless. We'd all have jobs, affordable living, and good schools for every child to go to. But we don't. Cause the government only cares about itself and its money.

I rest my case...for now.
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
amy,

So if Darwin's main ideas are flawed, do you believe in his theories on how man, the universe and all of existance came into being? I mean -If "natural selection/survival of the fittest/might makes right" are bunk, then on what principal are Darwin's theories of evolution built upon, in your view?


No, I do not belive in Darwin's theory. All I said was that Nazi used them as a pretext to kill the jews. That, and Hitler's resents towards the jews because he considered one jew doctor responsable for his mother's death. But that's something else. Now, let's go back to wars.

Peace is a relative thing. It lasts as long it's an economical balance between between similar developed states. WWII for example started because 3 aggressor states: Germany, Italy and Japan wanted new territories with resources and marketplace where they would sell their excess of production, and war was the only way to get them.

In an possible war in Iran, US not only want to remove a nuclear threat, but also the oil resources. Everybody knows Americans posess great arrearages of oil, but they still want to get control over arabian ones, and Arabia has over 60% of the global oil arrearages.

Getting oil and testing the new weapons were the main reasons for which the Irak war started. It may sound anti-american, but you really think Bush started a war that costed USA hundreds of millions dollars just to kick Saddam's ass?
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Munan, I'm not making judgement calls


Good, neither am I. It seems to me our facts are pretty much the same, but we differ in our interpretations, which is not really strange, considering the totally different backgrounds we have.

Quote:
Are we trying to spread freedom and democracy so the men and women of Iraq can actually decide their own destiny instead of it being decided for them by a dictator or a religeon? Or is America subjugating the conquered country or Iraq into "Persian American"?


I sure hope those aren't rhetorical questions, so may I ask you to answer them?

Quote:
or would [these zealots] rather blow shit up!


It's funny, because they are exactly saying the same thing about America in their propaganda. Wait. Not funny. Sad. Tragic. Maybe it's all about the fact that we've reduced each other to propogandistic caricatures of our own fear of the other.

Quote:
I notice you claim to be a Muslim and so now what? Are you putting your beliefs on the line here so you can claim to be an expert in all things Muslim and an authority on what every Muslim will do? If that is your intent, then that's fine but you have opened yourself to personal attacks.


Come again? I was only saying that as a Muslim intellectual, I'd probably be more up to date on the current debates in the Muslim world than others. Just as you'd probably know more about things American than me...

RE: your whole story about Hussein and Al Qa'ida teaming up. Of course, I never denied that there might be opportunism on behalf of Ba'athists and islamists, it's just extremely unlikely, knowing Hussein and the amount of islamists the Ba'ath regime has killed. Other than the fact that Iraq and Al Qa'ida have both a q in their name, no link has been established yet. None whatsoever. So I never understood how on earth a war in Iraq, killing - as Simon has pointed out - many times more people than terrorism has ever claimed AND turning the country into a magnet and accelerator for terrorism both in and outside Iraq, could be part of a war on terrorism. In the same way that a war against Iran will help terrorism a lot by making shi'a extremists and wahhabi/salafi extremists - now at war with each other - the closest of buddies against Yankeedom.
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Blabla text


So if I say I think this planet would be better off without us humans like we are now, and then make a joke about taking over the world and executing everyone, you say I must commit suicide? What if I really do it because you told me to? Then you killed a human being through the internet. Way to go.
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Samy...we can define peace here as the lack of conflict, whether it be between nations/ religious sects/ religions in general/ races / classes. I'm not limiting my definition of peace to be lack of war between nations...that's intellectual masturbation...doing something that feels right but isn't truly complete. Peace is started in the heart and mind of man and then it carries to his actions and hence, when multiplied, the actions of societies, nations and the world. We will never all feel and think the same and therefore not all agree and therefore conflict on one level can grow to the next level. The only way mankind will enforce a world peace on itself is by squelching the things that make us different and that we cling to use as our guiding lights for how we live our lives. Remember John Lennon's song "Imagine"? He wanted peace...but look at what he imagined a world where everyone is happy, with out many of the things we use to guide us...religion. How many terror attacks and wars have been fought over whose religion is better or right? So the logical thing to do is take religion away from men. Right?
Can't say I agree. Of course squelching religion might seem like the solution, but really, it's impossible. Squelching religious intolerance would be the perfect solution. Of course there will always be those people who'll try to fuck the world over, using their faith as justification, but seriously, do they really actually give a fuck about their faith? Usually no, and if they do, you'll then find that they had little and/or bad experience with living among other religious groups, usually. Even if that possibility is ruled out, they're just about bound to be truly and surly wacko.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Blaster, as to my statement - "might makes right = survival of the fittest"-
Clearly, we are not speaking of "right" being "morally or ethically righteous according to God", but meaning "The stronger man makes the rules and if he makes the rules, then he can write them however he wants to and he will write them to favor himself if he has no morals...
No shit, Sherlock?

Tinkerjeep wrote:
...but as science teaches we humans are soulless animals and morals are invented to keep us from achieving our greatest heights...even Niche espoused this, in not so many words, Marx too. God and his morals are an invention by men in power to keep the masses stupid and cowed.
And here we have Aetheist Analis Fuckyouifyoubelieveingodis. Whatever you or I might think, it’s apparent you just displayed a rather blunt demonstration of religious intolerance (i.e. you just espoused atheism as 'the higher faith'). Also you can’t honestly believe the words of a few thinkers are definitely and unarguably true?
If anything, religion is advancement on humanity’s part. It set for us exactly what is good and what isn’t, it defines our morals. Without morals, civilization would simply crumble around us. We’d never feel safe in our homes; we’d never have been able to organize huge populations of people to create self-sustainable infrastructures for millions, nay, billions; basically we’d never be able to create our incredibly advanced society without knowing what was right and what was wrong. Interesting note, Homo Sapiens is one of the first species of hominid to be confirmed to have developed religious beliefs. Contrast that to our largely godless ancestors. I find it hard that such a detriment to the species has survived for thousands of years without being weeded out.
Still don't get what I'm saying? Or you disagree? You have every right not to believe or care, just next time, tread softly on other's beliefs. Also you'll find that Niche is actually spelled Nietzsche.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Simon - Have all of Former communist Europe and Russia turned 180 degrees around from poverty and oppression of the communist, atheist, soviet control that held reign for 7 decades...or are they all struggling, like its the American wild west over there and crime and gangsters are running rampant?
Where does '180' come into this? Those states were not in a regression, but progress was slow, and the people were more or less oppressed. Remember what I said? My parents, my grandparents, say that the fall of communism was definitely a turn for the better. As far as they know, the problems with crime have actually lessened after the iron curtain fell. I can't say how the other states have reacted, but I think you'll find they'll share the same response as my family.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Because I've heard its a struggle, states want to secede, Putin killing hundreds of separatists because they were holding a school hostage...their grievances were what again? That the government had killed their husbands?
And this was worse than the genocide the Communist government committed? I mean, seriously, Stalin killed off millions during his regime, and that’s not counting everything after him.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
What about the hardline Nazis regaining power in newly Unified Germany? Does that worry anybody? What about the crime and extortion that is running amok in Russia? Aren't these all signs that the current governments are a failure and the old hardline of communist Russian control actually kept things in check....keeping the peace, as it were? How many terrorist attacks and coupes took place during the 70 years of Communist controlled Eastern Europe?
What hardline Nazis? What crime and extortion in Russia? It’s not as if America is spotless, you know.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
The American government does not squelch religions in our own country, and we are not doing that in Iraq...but do the zealots attacking us know how to sit down like adults and talk things out with their rivals? or would they rather blow shit up!
America is punched in the face by religious zealots and what does it do? It punched back of course. That sounds quite different from sitting down and talking things out like adults. Also, you'll note that anti-Muslim sentiment in the US is abnormally high, even by the government.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Further, I'm trying to ask questions, and not make judgements on the board - I'm not going to state my prefereances just so someone can tear them down. I notice you claim to be a Muslim and so now what? Are you putting your beliefs on the line here so you can claim to be an expert in all things Muslim and an authority on what every Muslim will do? If that is your intent, then that's fine but you have opened yourself to personal attacks. I will, however continue to ask questions.
I lol’d.
Tinkerjeep wrote:
...but as science teaches we humans are soulless animals and morals are invented to keep us from achieving our greatest heights...even Niche espoused this, in not so many words, Marx too. God and his morals are an invention by men in power to keep the masses stupid and cowed.
Like that isn’t judgmental. Also, how is declaring being Muslim making yourself open to attack, compared to declaring Atheism, Christianity, Buddhism, or any other faith/belief for that matter? And so far, Munan declared his faith a long time back, and so far I don’t think he’s been attacked once, except maybe by you.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Here's a good counter point for you regarding Al Queda working with irreligious allies in a conflict against a common enemy, i.e. Saddam Hussein. Your point was that the terrorists that espouse Islam that attacked the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and would be the White House would not be linked with Hussein because they hated him and his regime due to his "atheistic" views or at least not sharing their religious beliefs, correct? I have heard this preferred from many sources. But consider this - Obviously Al Queda hated us pretty vehemently in order to do what they did. Osama Bin Laden Hates us as infidels, We Americans are the great Satan and should all die! Zarqawi (sp) felt the same thing. These guys would never link up with one such as us, correct? that would fly in the face of their religious code. You don't deal with the infidel, you convert or kill him, correct?
Then why did Osama's boys take American aid in the war in Afghanistan against the USSR in the 1970s and 80s? Were we a Muslim country then? No, Reagan was President and he was more Christian in his deeds than Bush is. So if Osama would team up with the CIA and use weapons given him by the Great Satan - The USA, why not from a much closer neighbor, like Iraq?
Uh… cause it wouldn’t serve Bin Laden’s interests?

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Aramor- "Anyhoo, my fall back plan would be to achieve global domination and then execute everyone... but that's near impossible... "

So you think you should achieve world domination and then kill everyone? That's a brilliant idea. I say to that, just skip the hard part of conquering the world and aid in the extinction of the human race in your own small way -start with yourself. If you trully believe this principle of human extinction, why should you live, and everyone else die? Are you better then the rest of us?

Truly world peace is impossible if there are people like you harboring the urge to kill every one off. Great peacemaking plan, I nominate you as head of the UN. Wait, they already have a pro-genocidal ass running them. (Sorry, that was judgmental...I get that way when someone arbitrarily decides he needs to kill off the human race, including me...my bad.)
Oh, I spy, with my little eye, something starting with ‘a’! A person who conveniently forgets he wasn’t trying to be judgmental, and who also doesn't seem to have any sense of humor whatsoever, and on top of that, has a hard time spelling many words? Correct!
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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow...this is ummm getting serious...>.>
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know! and keep talking/typing...>.>! n_n
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just call me spidey! and yep! ^_^
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Simon...do you think I am an Atheist just because I state what science, evolution, Comunisism espouse? Am I allowed to state the dogma of other groups, that may or may not be my own. It is an assumption on your part that I am anything but argumentative and American as it regards this discussion.
TinkerJeep wrote:
God and his morals are an invention by men in power to keep the masses stupid and cowed.
My bad? Unless I really misunderstood that line, no.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
We know you think I am a bad speller. I agree, but so F-ing what? do I not get to post if I make quick spelling mistakes? At least I put things more clearly than OMFGLOLROFLMAOBBMHALLIFWWAS...
There's a grammar Nazi in all of us. Mine needs to get fresh air every few days.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Quote me correctly next time. I said "=" not "=|=".
and yeah, no shit...apparently Blaster don't get it?
Got confused between : and - (The former says that you're making your own statement. '-' To me denotes reference.) My bad, post edited, world saved.

TinkerJeep wrote:
as far as being judgmental...there sure as hell is a line...someone who is willing to debate something versus someone who espoused genocide. That shit is funny? RIGHT, he was joking...mentioning it once in passing is a joke, rehashing it and arguing it several many times and it is something to be taken seriously, in my book. So you're damn skippy I'll judge a dumbass idea when I here one !
After actually going over the previous posts concerning question 5, I'll admit, my bad.

TinkerJeep wrote:
No apologies. And I'd appreciate it if you let me deal with who I'm dealing with without butting in. If Aramor can't hold his own, that's his problem...If Munan can't argue his points, that's his problem. Same goes for you...If we get into an argument and you can't make your points clearly, then that's on you. I work the same way...if I can't get anything across, I'm not gonna ask for help in making my points.
If I'm not mistaken, you posted that message on a public board. I don't see why I can't make a comment on your little discussions. If you wanted to have your little chats without interference, you can either use the PM system or contact them directly if they provided an instant messenger address/email.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
I don't need the moderator to come in and call off the dogs because someone is tearing me apart.
Shouldn't we all...*

Tinkerjeep wrote:
As for the betterment of Russia and its satellites after the fall of communism, you say its better over there without an oppressive regime controlling everything. You question if there are even any real serious troubles...You compare the problems in Europe against those here in America. I'm not comparing Europe to America...so quite trying to slap me in the face, because I'm American, boy. And as an American I am all to aware of the faults of my countrymen and our leaders...that is not the point, we are talking about the war in Iraq, its ramifications and reasons, causes and effects.
First off, where did I specify I was comparing America to Europe? Second, how are problems over the pond any different from problems here, may I ask? Third, America's faults are indeed a point, see under 'causes, reasons, ramifications, and effects'.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
I'm trying to make a comparison between free Europe post WW2, in the subject I'm discussing with Munan, the state of the satellite nations post- Russian communism with you, and the state of Iraq if this bold endeavor is allowed to run its course. We are Nation building, not Empire making, and frankly I'm getting tired of every non-American on the forum slamming my country for things it isn't doing. If you hate America and what it stands for, leave us alone! You don't live here, you don't vote.
Again, your discussions are actually open for public scrutiny and comment, but that's a minor quibble. Nation building vs. empire making? Really, what's the difference? Also what did someone say that America didn't do? And America, although we can't tell it what to do, or who should lead it, America is part of the same international scene everyone else is in, and we have the right to stand up and criticize your actions.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
And I just posted a lengthy reply but it has been zapped. so I'm not wasting anymore breath there.
Zapped? Confused

*I meant that all people should be able to stand up for themselves. There are simply too many people who take a 'flight' response, either away completely or to higher powers, instead of taking it head on. Either way I salute you for making yourself clear on that point.
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should become a politician...
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Guess what...yup, deleted by me)
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Corporal Waffle



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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

okok... i dont boter reading all these LONG replyes....

can anyone give me a quick "flashback"?
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Vevlaa, for fuck's sake, edit your damn post!!
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Munan
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:

I'm trying to make a comparison between free Europe post WW2, in the subject I'm discussing with Munan


So far, I haven't seen a significant parallel yet.

Quote:
[I'm comparing] the state of the satellite nations post- Russian communism with you, and the state of Iraq if this bold endevour is allowed to run its course.


Your analysis is significantly flawed here, as Simon pointed out. Care to try again, or admit that this comparison is not working?

Quote:
We are Nation building, not Empire making


Depending on how you use the term, you might be empire making. You could, for instance, perceive of NATO as sort of an empire (in a broad sense, a loose federation of nations with Western Capitalism the American way as sort of a common ideology). In the same way, getting rid of unfriendly governments and creating satellite states is a form of empire making, just not in the traditional sense of the word. So, if you meant it in the traditional sense, yeah, you're not empire making.

As for Nation Building (I love the capitals here): Dude, do you get the same news as we get here? If you are really Nation Building there, you're doing a lousy job. More people are killed everyday in Iraq than ever during the reign of Saddam. You know, freedom is worth nothing if you're dead. Yeah, some people may be prepared to die for freedom, but only of their own choice. Since that choice is now forced upon them, they don't feel very committed to this new nation.

Also, is it me, or is it perverse that this Nation Building is partly being done by a man who was on good terms with Saddam Hussein, was in Iraq on the day Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of Kurds using poison gas representing the Reagan government and actually sent a message back home that yeah, something bad happened, but the US shouldn't fuss too much about it... The same man who now constantly names this attack as an example of the general badness of the Hussein government: Donald Rumsfeld.

I mean, excuse me, but what sense of nation building do you have?

Quote:
D, and frankly I'm getting tired of every non-American on the forum slamming my country for things it isn't doing.


Hmmm, kind of like the abject analysis you give of Europe? Yeah, as a European I know how you feel - twice.

Quote:
If you hate America and what it stands for, leave us alone! You don't live here, you don't vote.


Neither do the Iraqis. You do realize, don't you, that if the US is so eager to go around "nation building" and playing policeman of the world (and I'm not saying it never should do so), people are NOT going to leave you alone. The scary fact for many is that the US go around taking care of other people's business. These people indeed don't live in the US, cannot vote, but it often feel as if they have to accept the US and what it stands for (what does a nation of millions stand for, anyway?) as an important force in their lifes. Try to look at it from their perspective, will you?

Personally, I don't "hate America". How could I, there's so many different Americas. I like New York, my brother has been living there for 15 years now and seems to enjoy himself. I love to go s.h.o.p.p.i.n.g. in America.

Quote:
The same goes for the "Americans" that hate our own country...


Any idea how paranoid that sounds?

vevlaa wrote:
okok... i dont boter reading all these LONG replyes....

can anyone give me a quick "flashback"?


No.
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Sal



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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:

vevlaa wrote:

can anyone give me a quick "flashback"?


No.



quick indeed.
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Sal, you're my favourite member again.
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