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angelusraptor



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amy, no offense, you seem really keen to not go to Heaven. Or maybe it's me.
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amyltrer



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah you're right! I'd rather go to Hell. Twisted Evil
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Raziel



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im an atheist, and by classical Christian beliefs that lands me right in the lake of warm marmalade and fire.
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amyltrer



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raziel wrote:
Im an atheist, .


Then you'll end up in an deep abyss.
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Sal



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[homersimpsonvoice]mmmm...marmalade...[/homersimpsonvoice]
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amyltrer



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salvatore wrote:
[homersimpsonvoice]mmmm...marmalade...[/homersimpsonvoice]



[homersimpsonvoice]...Hmmm...marplot....[homersimpsonvoice]
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sardine



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding Hell, there is the whole line of reasoning that it cannot exist because 1) God created everything; and 2) God is all-good and cannot perform an evil act. Therefore who created Hell? (let alone who created evil in the first place)

If the answer is God, then he is not-all good. If it was someone else, then there is more than one God.

It makes more sense that Hell is some mental bogeyman to spook us all in line and to behave than some actual, physical place complete with fire and brimstone
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Aramor



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evil was invented by humanity...
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sardine



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aramor the First wrote:
Evil was invented by humanity...


...but humanity was created by God, because God created everything. Thus all of humanity's foibles must come from God, including evil. But God is all-good. There's the vicious philosophical cycle.
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Aramor



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah well, but didn't God create us on the last day? So he was probably tired Razz
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Digitaaliklosetti



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People who honestly believe that the christian God is all-good and capable of no malevolence, well...

Either they have a pretty fucking warped view of what's good, or they just don't know shit.
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sardine



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Digitaaliklosetti wrote:
Either they have a pretty fucking warped view of what's good, or they just don't know shit.


Not my own beliefs, but just using the train of debunking thought I picked up in college philosophy classes
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Munan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sardine wrote:
God is all-good and cannot perform an evil act. Therefore who created Hell? (let alone who created evil in the first place)


Hell was created by God and it was not an evil act, but an act of benevolence, since it (1) keeps people from committing evil deeds - and thereby hurting each other(2) punishes people who committed evil deeds, which satisfies God's and our sense of justice.

Ergo, hell is not an evil place (the people in it are).

Evil came into being by the first act of defiance against god, by Satan, who's either an angel (if you're of the Christian persuasion) or a spirit of fire (if you're of the Muslim persuasion). God did not create evil, but He did create free will which might lead to evil and He was probably well aware of that.

But then again, if, at the birth of your child, you were given the choice to either keep the child devoid of free will, meaning it will do whatever you want or say, or give it free will, knowing it will probably hit puberty in many nasty ways, most of us will make the same choice God made.

This, by the way, suggests, that the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not entirely against God's will. Milton, for instance seems to hint as much in Paradise Lost.

Satan, of course, fell when he lead that first rebellion against God, foreshadowing the human fall. That's were hell comes in.
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Ipsa



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sardine wrote:
...but humanity was created by God, because God created everything. Thus all of humanity's foibles must come from God, including evil.

That's what Calvin said; since God has predestined everyone (you're either damned or saved and there's no way of changing that) and everything that's supposed to happen, those sins have to come from somewhere. In this way, then, Satan's rebellion was already known and planned as was man's fall. Since God then mapped everything out, then He, obviously, is the root of all good and evil. But I don't think that most of Christianity believes that. Anything else I say on this particular matter will probably just be a recap of what Munan said. I just felt like talking about Calvin. Wink
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Sal



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

let's talk about Hobbes now Razz
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Munan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you know, I come from a double background - my mother is of the Dutch reformed church (which is, like, calvinism in its most pristine form) and my father is a Muslim (which shares many points of view with calvinism on this matter).

Still, I don't agree with the phrasing "God* is the root of all evil". It rather goes like this: God gave us free will, knowing that that would be the root of all evil.

Salvatore wrote:
let's talk about Hobbes now Razz


A great entertainer. Also, he was right concerning an awful lot of things, something many people deliberately fail to recognize.
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*Any regular visitor to this forum knows that instead of writing "God", one could just as well have opted for "Eliza" or, more recently, "Chuck Norris" or, classically, "the Terror of Kittens", etc., etc.

**All this was written from the point of view that God actually exists. Wheter that is true, is a completely different discussion, of course.
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Ipsa



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
God gave us free will, knowing that that would be the root of all evil.

I've never understood how predestination and free will can co-exist. (I know that you didn't mention anything about that in your post, but just something that popped into my mind.)
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Munan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, in Calvinism there lies, indeed, the rub. Since God has predestinated everything, free will is a bit of a strange conception. Your free will is actually in God's hands, which is pretty far from free will as we would understand it: autonomous acting.
The same goes for fundamentalist intertpretations of Islam, where qadar (that is, predestination) is explained in much the same way as Calvinists do.
However, more thoughtfull (and more sane, I would argue) explanations of qadar puts it like this: since God is all knowing and exists outside time, He is aware of the outcome of every history and even history itself.

In the one case, qadar or predestination is explained with the sentence "God has willed it", in the second case it is: "God has known it". The latter also frees us from idiots excusing their ridiculous deeds with "it's what God wants"
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Telveryon



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ipsa wrote:
I've never understood how predestination and free will can co-exist. (I know that you didn't mention anything about that in your post, but just something that popped into my mind.)

As far as I know, God gave up on predestination when he gave humans free will and now acts more like a guide and as an example for us.
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amyltrer



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aramor the First wrote:
Evil was invented by humanity...


No. Evil was invented by God. Like everything else. God is the greatest inventor in universe. the inventer of universe
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Pieh



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yay, you switched your avatar. now we can see a bit more of your face and neck and hair. a bit.

but you still haven't gotten an avatar that showed your forehead! Maybe that guy who said your forehead was really huge and stuff (digit I think o_O) is RIGHT.
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amyltrer



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a citizen of Hell, so I have a huge forehead with 2 sharp horns on it. Wanna see them?
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Pieh



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i bet you have hideous boils on your forehead. And they bleed pus.



Well good thing you switched from that old disgusting SMILING avy. Now you're like uuhuhuhuhuhhhh.



:B
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amyltrer



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's it! I'm gonna prod you with my horns, till you bleed. I want blood. Twisted Evil
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Pieh



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might I ask where you're going to prod those things?

I could've totally made one or two perverted jokes by now, but I'll leave that spot for aramor. I'm a gentleman.


MEOWMEOWMEOWMEOWMEOW
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