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Samy



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

since i'm far too lazy or not enlightened enough to think about/of what will come after death i'll just do it like life: see what happens and make the best of it
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Sal



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Antidistinctlyminty wrote:
Salvatore,
If the intentions and hearts of the people running organised religions were as pure and earnest as those following them, we'd be in utopia.


you got a point, but then again, it's unjust to generalize this way. not every member of every church establishment is a bastard. there are lots of decent people in there as well. it's just always the case that the sonofabitches get much more publicity, and we remeber them clearer.

Antidistinctlyminty wrote:
I just always see religion as secondary to faith.


and generally i agree with you on this, but i do have some misgivings about this way of stating it.
somehow, it always (well maybe not always but ever since i started giving the subject some serious thought) seemed to me almost TOO convenient to say "i don't need any church or any organised religion, i say i believe, and everyone leave me alone"-kind of thing. maybe it's because of the particular people i've met who expressed this attitude.
does it mean you don't have to do anything about your faith? sounds a bit lazy-ass to me. aren't we supposed to tend to our faith? deepen and strengthen it and stuff? is just having it really enough?

well, maybe it is.
but then again, who are we to decide upon this?


i'm not making any serious point here, i'm just stating my doubts. the problem is i haven't got it figured out myself.
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Aramor



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you're saying you don't believe that faith is just gonna happen anyhow, and we can't do anything about it, but that we should try to help it come along? Well, maybe doing the actions that would be implied by doing it are also already determined... I mean, we can't say for sure how much is already determined for us to happen...
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Sal



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aramor the First wrote:
So you're saying you don't believe that faith is just gonna happen anyhow, and we can't do anything about it, but that we should try to help it come along? Well, maybe doing the actions that would be implied by doing it are also already determined... I mean, we can't say for sure how much is already determined for us to happen...



no, that's not what i'm saying.
Very Happy

HOWEVER, the whole predestination concept is an interesting question as well.
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Anti



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salvatore wrote:
HOWEVER, the whole predestination concept is an interesting question as well.


Final Predestination... I can smell a movie franchise... Smile
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Aramor



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salvatore wrote:
the hole predestination


What kind of movie? Razz
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Munan
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon_Says wrote:
Other halls? If you would care to actually list them or give a link that lists them, most appreciated.


Problem is, all the information I have on this is in books and they're in Icelandic an Swedish.

For starters, there is Žor's hall, Bilskirnir. This is where the poor man, and all who fare humbly or are in bondage, go after they die. Though the ones going to Valhalla (Ošin's hall) are considered to be higher in rank, the ones in Bilskirnir also feast and make merry.

I suppose any good book on Old Norse cosmology has a list.

You might want to try to pick up a copy of The Book of Myths, by Amy Cruse. though the information on the halls is quite little, if I remember correctly, she mentions some of them.

But there is a lot of crap on this subject out there as well. It's infuriating... well, sort of.
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sardine



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd hope for purgatory even though I'm not catholic. I'm an anglican apostate so if I were practising, I'm not suppose to believe in such a place anyways. However if anything from catholicism makes any sense, it's the existance of purgatory.

I could never accept that faith alone would guarantee salvation, because I think a lot of non-christian folks do a lot more good in this world than some worthless piece of shit deathrow murderer who confesses right before their death.
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amyltrer



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hell doors are always opened. Any time, for any one.
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Ipsa



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sardine wrote:
I'd hope for purgatory even though I'm not catholic. I'm an anglican apostate so if I were practising, I'm not suppose to believe in such a place anyways. However if anything from catholicism makes any sense, it's the existance of purgatory.

I could never accept that faith alone would guarantee salvation, because I think a lot of non-christian folks do a lot more good in this world than some worthless piece of shit deathrow murderer who confesses right before their death.

Thank God that Catholicism doesn't have sola fides stuff...! Wink
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sardine



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ipsa wrote:
Thank God that Catholicism doesn't have sola fides stuff...!


Uh-huh... (necessary belief in God besides, but) that is where protestantism would logically turn me off. Where catholicism turns me off is it's negative mediaevalist attitude towards pussy and fags

P.S. thanks for providing the term. I knew the concept but couldn't recall the Latin terminology
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Munan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sardine wrote:
However if anything from catholicism makes any sense, it's the existance of purgatory.


Like in Islam. There, the whole hell functions as a purgatory since, according to a saying from the prohet Muhammed, "There will come a time when the winds will blow through the empty halls of hell"

The punishment in hell will last an eternity in Hell, though, while that eternity will feel like a moment in Heaven. The reasoning behind this makes sense: since heaven cannot be a punishment, people who've ended up in heaven should not miss their relatives who accidently ended up in hell. So in the end, they have to come to heaven as well.
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Sal



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
So in the end, they have to come to heaven as well.



and everyone's a winner, aye? Wink
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Aramor



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just believe that after you die you go to the afterlife for a while and then you re-incarnate... and every time you do that your soul gains experience. Once he has all the experience he needs, he goes to something beyond the afterlife which could be seen as some sort of heaven...
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sardine



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
Like in Islam. There, the whole hell functions as a purgatory since, according to a saying from the prohet Muhammed, "There will come a time when the winds will blow through the empty halls of hell"


Islam? Now you're just making up heresies... Wink

(homage to Abe's comment about Staten Island in ALP#1)
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amyltrer



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In most religions Hell is represented as a creepy place where bad people go after death, and is usually asociated with physical pain. I wonder what's the hell version for a mosochist.

Heaven is descripted like a boring place: white clouds, angels singing at sackbuts, peace and quiet, bleah, bleah; the islam says that you'll eat huge amounts of rice there.

The purgatory was invented by the catholic Church, to fool people with the idea that their sins will be deleted if they would pay money or donate lands for that. I'm orthodox and this part of christianity rejects the ideea of purgatory. You'll go to hell or to heaven, there's no other place.
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Ipsa



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amyltrer wrote:
The purgatory was invented by the catholic Church, to fool people with the idea that their sins will be deleted if they would pay money or donate lands for that.

I think that maybe you're thinking of indulgences which were sold and preached as a means of speeding one's way out of Purgatory. That was why there was a problem with the indulgences in the late Middle Ages; they were not doctrinal at all and it was a means of exploiting "popular" religion. If you read Luther's Disputation on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences (a.k.a. "95 Theses"), he decries them as an extra means of revenue for the Church, which revenue was primarily used for the construction of St. Peter's Basilica. Purgatory is what the name means--a place where you are purged of your sins (so that you may become fit to be in God's presence). It was quite common for people to bequeath lands and money to the Church, but not generally for the sake of indulgences.
But maybe I prattled all of that off for my own selfish benefit. Razz

amyltrer wrote:
Heaven is descripted like a boring place: white clouds, angels singing at sackbuts, peace and quiet, bleah, bleah

Heaven is, at least in Catholicism, depicted as a place where you spend all of your time worshipping God (example, Dante's Paradiso). Yeah, it could be pretty boring. But since you're there to bask in God's Glory and praise Him, then it's everything that you want.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

amyltrer wrote:
...

Heaven is descripted like a boring place: white clouds, angels singing at sackbuts, peace and quiet, bleah, bleah; the islam says that you'll eat huge amounts of rice there...


What? Where you get that from?

In Heaven we drink wine too.
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Munan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He, the rice is new for me too!

sardine wrote:
Islam? Now you're just making up heresies... Wink


I knew I was living in a make-believe world...

btw nice to have you back, sardine!
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Pirator



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now granted I really don't know much onthis whole subject, so if I'm way off the mark don't berrate me too much. But in Christianity isn't God all forgiving, so no matter what your sins he'll forgive you. So wouldn't hell be kinda empty. 0_o
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Digitaaliklosetti



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pirator wrote:
Now granted I really don't know much onthis whole subject, so if I'm way off the mark don't berrate me too much. But in Christianity isn't God all forgiving, so no matter what your sins he'll forgive you. So wouldn't hell be kinda empty. 0_o

With so many different interpretations and views of God, it all kinda boils down to this;

In Christianity, God doesn't know what the fuck He's doing. He just does it and hopes people will think it was somebody else.
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Aramor



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:
Two great European narcotics, alcohol and Christianity.


Yeah, and if you believe in God long enough, God will believe in you Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Myself, I have a complete inability to believe anything which cannot be validated by sensory perceptions or by reasoning.

As a result, I cannot believe there is a God/afterlife,
and I cannot believe there is NOT a God/afterlife.

They call it the weasel way out because it doesn't satisfy them. I don't call it the weasel way out because it satisfies me.
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Satan Crime Wash



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see your answer as a cop-out either, Crotchfire. Nobody knows what happens when you die. I guess the topic should probably have been called 'Where do you think you will go when you die?'

I'm not concerned with paying lip-service to whatever man-made mythology happens to be prevalent in the place where I was born. That's just a result of fortuitousness, after all. I hope that everyone gets what they deserve in the end. Reincarnation's fine, but I'd rather go to an afterlife. At least then I'd still be me, which is preferable to coming back as a grasshopper (in my opinion). We should just all live by the rules of Bill and Ted and then maybe we'd have Heaven on Earth. Razz
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amyltrer



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pirator wrote:
Now granted I really don't know much onthis whole subject, so if I'm way off the mark don't berrate me too much. But in Christianity isn't God all forgiving, so no matter what your sins he'll forgive you. So wouldn't hell be kinda empty. 0_o


Your sins will be deleted only if you trully regret them. And you have to do a lot of things for that, like fasting, praying, go to church, not make nasty jokes to your schoolmates...... It's difficult to get a ticket to heaven.
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