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cfos



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: Fallout 3 Reply with quote

So, I just reserved this game for the 360. Supposed to be released on Oct 30th. I'm not familiar with the Fallout series, other than what I've read at the Bethesda site and in gaming magazines. I'm mostly excited because I get the impression it will be like Oblivion, in some ways. Anyone with experience in the Fallout(s) want to chime in and tell me what I should expect? The guy in the gaming store was describing it like Oblivion, but with a Gears of War flavor (ducking, etc.).
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cue Aramor's rabid "Fallout Rulez!" screams.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah! I seemed to have missed the earlier thread...
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FALLOUT RULEZZZ!!!!!

Sorry, just had to do that.

Personally I think Fallout 1 and 2 are the best RPG's I've ever played. But that's mostly because I also have a thing for post-apoc settings. I just hope Fallout 3 will be as cool as 1 and 2, but since you've never played them, I'd say enjoy the game, because what I did see of the gameplay, it's gonna be an awesome game whether or not you're a fan of the franchise.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm actually growing a little worried about how the game will turn out. The trailer's a full of action, guns, action, explosions, mutants, and action. This is looking like a fucking FPS not an RPG. I didn't see any hint of any deep, involved world for the player to interact with, full of deeply rounded characters and role-playing opportunities. Maybe my fears are unfounded but I'm definitely not going to pre-order this.

Also since it's going to be released on consoles as well as PC, I'm putting my money on the table that the user interface and controls will be more suited to console users than for PC gamers. No doubt there'll be a big, healthy mod community ready to go and pumping out material within hours of the game's release but therin lies a problem, the same problem Oblivion had: the game may, for all intents and purposes, require third-party modification to be enjoyable.

Some of you may know what I'm talking about. Compare Oblivion Vanilla with Oblivion with BTMod (which changed Oblivion's GUI to be more PC friendly) and the Unofficial Patch (which fixed a host of bugs, errors and inconsistencies that Bethesda determinedly refused to fix in the official patches). The difference is staggering, the vanilla version becomes unplayable after experiencing the effects those two mods had. This sort of thing should not happen. Mods should add or replace game content, not fix it.

Still, the news that there won't be any DRM beyond a possible CD-key on the PC version of the game is good to hear. At least someone's got brains in this industry.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon_Says wrote:
I'm actually growing a little worried about how the game will turn out. The trailer's a full of action, guns, action, explosions, mutants, and action.

They're just trying to sell it to the "omg noob your a faggot" Xbox Live crowd. The adventure aspect won't shift copies, in the opinion of the moneymen. The joke will be on Bethesda, though. I was talking to my bro about this a few weeks ago, Fallout 3 will be returned/traded in en masse when the aforementioned folks realise that they haven't bought yet another wannabe 'Tom Clancy's Neocon Shoot All The Brown People Wankfest #7'.

It happened when I worked retail several times. KOTOR, and Full Spectrum Warrior being the two games I remember taking return after return for. Here's an example dialogue:

ME: You want to return Full Spectrum Warrior, OK. What's the reason for the return?
CUSTOMER: Duh, I is can't control the character. You just tell 'em what to do. I is just wanna shoot people, innit. Duh (drools on self).

Because FSW was made out to just look like another shooter, people bought it, boosting the sales figures. But then they returned it, meaning smaller restock orders, meaning less money made overall. Stupid stupid publishers.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why did people return KotOR?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cause they wanted Jedi Outcast, not a d20 epic. Though that is still strange, cause it was a smash hit here in Canadia. Also twitchers would probably never hear about Bioware, since Bioware never made an FPS besides MDK 2.

Master Chainsaw wrote:
Simon_Says wrote:
I'm actually growing a little worried about how the game will turn out. The trailer's a full of action, guns, action, explosions, mutants, and action.
They're just trying to sell it to the "omg noob your a faggot" Xbox Live crowd. The adventure aspect won't shift copies, in the opinion of the moneymen. The joke will be on Bethesda, though. I was talking to my bro about this a few weeks ago, Fallout 3 will be returned/traded in en masse when the aforementioned folks realise that they haven't bought yet another wannabe 'Tom Clancy's Neocon Shoot All The Brown People Wankfest #7'.

*Sigh* The sad truth is that you're probably right.

When I look back I see that somehow, somewhere in the distant past (just less than 10 years ago I should think) game developers had come to a critical point where imagination and innovation started to become optional goals. Now I won't say that the blame is exclusively Bungie's, but I find it suspicious that this point was reached about the time Halo 1 was released, to be soaked en mass by fratboys everywhere, and after that the Halo design has since been ripped off by almost every major shooter in the last seven or so years, and more or less unchanged.

Unreal Tournament is another example. 2003 was half-baked, 2004 was great. UT3 however is virtually identical to 2004, plus a few complimentary steps back. At some point Epic realized that they'd make good money catering to the simple, frat boy, "I is just wanna shoot people" demographic. They also realized that they'd make more money re-releasing the same game with better graphics.

So for the past few years game developers didn't innovate game play simply because they didn't need to. Catering to the simplistic crowds has been good for them. Put enough shine on (graphically or otherwise) and people won't mind if it's pretentious repeated bullshit. If you can shoot things, blow stuff up, and tea-bag corpses, it's a fucking masterpiece.

This mentality also applied to Oblivion, of all games. I don't know about you but I felt that they made it an action game with RPG elements, instead of an RPG* with action elements. This is what I'm worried about with Fallout. The developers may love the previous games to tears, but does that mean they'll stay true to the spirits of Black Isle's masterpiece? A change of genre/style/pace whatever could be a good thing (see Aliens) but I think it's a no-brainer to state that it would need a damn miracle to pull off.

I'm keeping my eye on this game, though. Perhaps the choice to not implant DRM is suggestive that they do indeed know what the fuck they're doing. However I can definitely state one thing: if Fallout 3 turns out to be an FPS*, those bullet-time, splatfest, "lol pwn" shots the trailer was so fond of showing off time and again, and again, and again, and again, and again... definitely not going to get old, quick. Nope. No siree. Also forcing the player to go through menus to get a head-shot with only a partial chance of success isn't going to piss off the "h4rdc0r3", "b00m h34dsh07!" twitch players to no end.

*An rpg? An FPS? Grammar Nazis cremate me now...
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Master Chainsaw wrote:
Simon_Says wrote:
I'm actually growing a little worried about how the game will turn out. The trailer's a full of action, guns, action, explosions, mutants, and action.

They're just trying to sell it to the "omg noob your a faggot" Xbox Live crowd. The adventure aspect won't shift copies, in the opinion of the moneymen. The joke will be on Bethesda, though. I was talking to my bro about this a few weeks ago, Fallout 3 will be returned/traded in en masse when the aforementioned folks realise that they haven't bought yet another wannabe 'Tom Clancy's Neocon Shoot All The Brown People Wankfest #7'.

It happened when I worked retail several times. KOTOR, and Full Spectrum Warrior being the two games I remember taking return after return for. Here's an example dialogue:

ME: You want to return Full Spectrum Warrior, OK. What's the reason for the return?
CUSTOMER: Duh, I is can't control the character. You just tell 'em what to do. I is just wanna shoot people, innit. Duh (drools on self).

Because FSW was made out to just look like another shooter, people bought it, boosting the sales figures. But then they returned it, meaning smaller restock orders, meaning less money made overall. Stupid stupid publishers.


I'm curious... what sort of joke is going to be on Bethesda? The kind of joke where they sell a lot of games at full value and make a profit?



I don't think you know the meaning of the word...
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon_Says wrote:
Cause they wanted Jedi Outcast, not a d20 epic. Though that is still strange, cause it was a smash hit here in Canadia. Also twitchers would probably never hear about Bioware, since Bioware never made an FPS outside of MDK 2.

Master Chainsaw wrote:
Simon_Says wrote:
I'm actually growing a little worried about how the game will turn out. The trailer's a full of action, guns, action, explosions, mutants, and action.
They're just trying to sell it to the "omg noob your a faggot" Xbox Live crowd. The adventure aspect won't shift copies, in the opinion of the moneymen. The joke will be on Bethesda, though. I was talking to my bro about this a few weeks ago, Fallout 3 will be returned/traded in en masse when the aforementioned folks realise that they haven't bought yet another wannabe 'Tom Clancy's Neocon Shoot All The Brown People Wankfest #7'.

*Sigh* The sad truth is that you're probably right.

When I look back I see that somehow, somewhere in the distant past (just less than 10 years ago I should think) game developers had come to a critical point where imagination and innovation started to become optional goals. Now I won't say that the blame is exclusively Bungie's, but I find it suspicious that this point was reached about the time Halo 1 was released, to be soaked en mass by fratboys everywhere, and after that the Halo design has since been ripped off by almost every major shooter in the last seven or so years, and more or less unchanged.

Unreal Tournament is another example. 2003 was half-baked, 2004 was great. UT3 however is virtually identical to 2004, plus a few complimentary steps back. At some point Epic realized that they'd make good money catering to the simple, frat boy, "I is just wanna shoot people" demographic. They also realized that they'd make more money re-releasing the same game with better graphics.

So for the past few years game developers didn't innovate game play simply because they didn't need to. Catering to the simplistic crowds has been good for them. Put enough shine on (graphically or otherwise) and people won't mind if it's pretentious repeated bullshit. If you can shoot things, blow stuff up, and tea-bag corpses, it's a fucking masterpiece.

This mentality also applied to Oblivion, of all games. I don't know about you but I felt that they made it an action game with RPG elements, instead of an RPG* with action elements. This is what I'm worried about with Fallout. The developers may love the previous games to tears, but does that mean they'll stay true to the spirits of Black Isle's masterpiece? A change of genre/style/pace whatever could be a good thing (see Aliens) but I think it's a no-brainer to state that it would need a damn miracle to pull off.

I'm keeping my eye on this game, though. Perhaps the choice to not implant DRM is suggestive that they do indeed know what the fuck they're doing. However I can definitely state one thing: if Fallout 3 turns out to be an FPS*, those bullet-time, splatfest, "lol pwn" shots the trailer was so fond of showing off time and again, and again, and again, and again, and again... definitely not going to get old, quick. Nope. No siree. Also forcing the player to go through menus to get a head-shot with only a partial chance of success isn't going to piss off the "h4rdc0r3", "b00m h34dsh07!" twitch players to no end.

*An rpg? An FPS? Grammar Nazis cremate me now...


I'll leave the grammar for others and pose a simple question or two: Why do you believe that game developers are supposed to be altruistic and make games for smaller populations, which by doing so, may not turn a profit thereby resulting in a loss of jobs? Do you belong to an organization where you support fired game developers that make games that you like?

No. It is all about profit. Think about it: If you were to start a business, this would be your model: I want to make a product that only a select few will like. I am not going to try to appeal to the masses. Now, since I'm not independently wealthy (what game designer is when starting out?), I'm going to go and try to sell my idea to those with the $$. I wonder... will they invest?

Call their jobs what you like, but they aren't doing it for free and no gamer is giving them donations.

You know what the irony is, though... People that harp and complain about the "downfall" of alp are doing just what you are doing. Complaining that the comics aren't updated frequently enough, that the quality has gone down... Same thing. The difference is that I think the people that regularly post in the forums are fans of what he does regardless of what he does and when he does it. Personally, if Bernie doesn't get to another comic 'till 2k9, I'm not going to complain. I also don't see the downturn in "quality" that others have described. But maybe, that's just me. Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You misunderstand me. I don't want developers to appeal only to specific target audiences, I want developers to stop floating. Nowadays they do not make the effort to improve the medium they work with. They appeal to only the existing audience and it's expectations and that's actually choking the industry.

Around the turn of the century, Starcraft had unsymmetrical factions, Half-life reinvented the shooter from run-and-gun to puzzle-based*, and Baldur's Gate, Fallout, marked the CRPG renaissance. Good times with a ton of good games. Now take modern games. Crysis, Haze, etc. are all based heavily on Halo. The RTS design has changed little besides resource mechanics. RPG is a catch-all term for any game with stat-and-calculator based mechanics.

Notice that Starcraft, Half-life, and Baldur’s Gate were all run away hits when they were released. The modern games do turn a profit, but nowhere near the levels that the games that they’re based on did. The problem with this is that the developers are actually relying on existing audiences rather than expanding it, which is what innovative gameplay does. The simple fact is that it's the innovative games that bring in new consumers to the hobby. Games such as Diablo, Half-Life 2, Neverwinter Nights, and Team Fortress 2 have garnered more new gamers than any other game I can think right now. It's the fresh games that appeal to the wider market. The "I is just wanna shoot people innit" demographic is actually quite small. Good games attract more people, leading to more sales.

I want the video game industry to flourish as much as anyone could. But the fact is that the square-headedness of developers is actually choking the industry. EA gets a lot of shit for re-releasing the same sports games over and over again. A lot of developers fail critically and only succeed financially by a margin because their games don't push the envelope. I know a lot of people who don't play games because they only see Halo, Halo, more Halo when they try to examine what's available. Then they see something like Team Fortress and to a lesser extent, Bioshock, and they’re hooked.

Developers don't need to attract new audiences by making innovative games, but they could do so much better if they tried. Now there was a study I found that examined the correlation between video game sales and quality. The result was that yes, good games aren't automatic successes, but bad or average games simply don't succeed. That's as good a reason as any to make the game good and not derivative.

Edit: *What I mean by puzzle-based shooter is that in Half-Life, you actually sort of approached every combat situation like a puzzle. Bad guys there with those abilities, I'm here with my abilities, there's the terrain to use and navigate, and other sorts of stuff. Combat became a mental exercise as well as an exercise of reactions and accuracy. Before half-life shooters were essentially run to the end of level shooting at enemies that ran straight for you.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aramor© wrote:
Why did people return KotOR?

Because they didn't realise it was an RPG. They just wanted to hit stuff with lightsabers, I guess. We still sold shitloads of copies, but we got a lot back, too.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon_Says wrote:
You misunderstand me. I don't want developers to appeal only to specific target audiences, I want developers to stop floating. Nowadays they do not make the effort to improve the medium they work with. They appeal to only the existing audience and it's expectations and that's actually choking the industry.

Around the turn of the century, Starcraft had unsymmetrical factions, Half-life reinvented the shooter from run-and-gun to puzzle-based*, and Baldur's Gate, Fallout, marked the CRPG renaissance. Good times with a ton of good games. Now take modern games. Crysis, Haze, etc. are all based heavily on Halo. The RTS design has changed little besides resource mechanics. RPG is a catch-all term for any game with stat-and-calculator based mechanics.

Notice that Starcraft, Half-life, and Baldur’s Gate were all run away hits when they were released. The modern games do turn a profit, but nowhere near the levels that the games that they’re based on did. The problem with this is that the developers are actually relying on existing audiences rather than expanding it, which is what innovative gameplay does. The simple fact is that it's the innovative games that bring in new consumers to the hobby. Games such as Diablo, Half-Life 2, Neverwinter Nights, and Team Fortress 2 have garnered more new gamers than any other game I can think right now. It's the fresh games that appeal to the wider market. The "I is just wanna shoot people innit" demographic is actually quite small. Good games attract more people, leading to more sales.

I want the video game industry to flourish as much as anyone could. But the fact is that the square-headedness of developers is actually choking the industry. EA gets a lot of shit for re-releasing the same sports games over and over again. A lot of developers fail critically and only succeed financially by a margin because their games don't push the envelope. I know a lot of people who don't play games because they only see Halo, Halo, more Halo when they try to examine what's available. Then they see something like Team Fortress and to a lesser extent, Bioshock, and they’re hooked.

Developers don't need to attract new audiences by making innovative games, but they could do so much better if they tried. Now there was a study I found that examined the correlation between video game sales and quality, which I'll link when I find it. The result was that yes, good games aren't automatic successes, but bad or average games simply don't succeed. That's as good a reason as any to make the game good.


Hmm... I may be misunderstanding some of what you are saying. Although, my understanding is that most businesses DO want to appeal to existing audiences. I'm not going to pretend that I understand what goes into developing a video game, but if it is in anyway similar to a drug company putting forth a new drug, there is a lot of money invested initially, with no promise of return. Here is what I'm talking about:

http://www.lifescience-online.com/Lundbeck_Acquires_European_Commercialization_Right,9790.html?portalPage=Lifescience+Today.News

Guess what? Flurizan didn't make it past clinical trials. No drug. Imagine investing that money is something that isn't produced...? You think Myriad gave that money back?


What you are proposing is that companies take the risk that whatever they develop is going to sell, so that get back their investment (and some profit). It is a poor business practive to develop something entirely new that ISN'T marketed for the current audience. Remeber Lazer-disk? The Pontiac Aztek? Not good track records.

I can't really comment on what you've stated regarding those other games -- I don't play them. What I can comment on is this: People like you are the people games aren't designed for. It is simply that. I am not trying to be rude. Games are made for people like me, because I'll go out and spend the $60 on something that I really don't know that much about. I've bought games that I haven't played (Max Payne II, Breakdown). Games are marketed to me because I'm a consumer who has money to spend. THAT is more of the mainstream gamer. I just googled this:

http://www.videogamevoters.org/learnmore/toptenfacts/

Average age of the video game buyer is 30+. That being the case, most of these buyers do not have the time or the design to invest in games that are 12+ hours. I recently got Force Unleased and I still haven't finished it, although I'm close. Maybe I will. Not sure.

This site, states again average age is 30+ and most popular games are "sports/poker":

http://www.socialfunds.com/news/article.cgi/2436.html


Here is another:

http://www.businessweek.com/debateroom/archives/2008/01/video_games_are.html

Out of curiosity, of the people you "talk" with, are any considered the "average age"? My guess is no, they are within your cohort. Likewise, as far as forums go, most of the regular posters (here) are likely younger, too and may share some of what you are describing. That doesn't change marketing strategy.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cfos wrote:
I'm curious... what sort of joke is going to be on Bethesda? The kind of joke where they sell a lot of games at full value and make a profit?

No, the joke where it sells fewer copies than market projections, and the high rate of return reduces restock orders. A mainstream core game will usually sell almost all of its copies in the first four weeks on sale, which will probably require a few large restock orders. Any so-called "triple A" title needs to sell a huge number of copies just to break even on the cost of development. When games fail to meet projections even if they make a profit*, the developers' owners tend to reduce budgets and sell off teams. For example: GTA IV's lower than expected sales leaves Take 2 teetering on the brink, they're probably going to have to cut costs and merge with another publisher to survive this generation.

I highly doubt that Zenimax would mess with the Elder Scrolls cash cow, but they might. At the furthest end of the scale, EA disbanded Westwood because of one flop title.

I answered your question because you asked it. Kindly don't respond to me, because I don't care what you think, and I hate internet debates.



*The last statistics I saw showed less than 5% of games turning a profit.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Master Chainsaw wrote:
cfos wrote:
I'm curious... what sort of joke is going to be on Bethesda? The kind of joke where they sell a lot of games at full value and make a profit?

No, the joke where it sells fewer copies than market projections, and the high rate of return reduces restock orders. A mainstream core game will usually sell almost all of its copies in the first four weeks on sale, which will probably require a few large restock orders. Any so-called "triple A" title needs to sell a huge number of copies just to break even on the cost of development. When games fail to meet projections even if they make a profit*, the developers' owners tend to reduce budgets and sell off teams. For example: GTA IV's lower than expected sales leaves Take 2 teetering on the brink, they're probably going to have to cut costs and merge with another publisher to survive this generation.

I highly doubt that Zenimax would mess with the Elder Scrolls cash cow, but they might. At the furthest end of the scale, EA disbanded Westwood because of one flop title.

I answered your question because you asked it. Kindly don't respond to me, because I don't care what you think, and I hate internet debates.



*The last statistics I saw showed less than 5% of games turning a profit.


Blah blah blah. It's a "free" internet.

Bethesda already survived their lack-luster Pirates of the Carribean title and all the crap about Oblivion being "ruined". The last statistics I SAW, Fallout 3 also won "Best in Show" at a major convention:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6195454.html

... yet you know more. I guess we'll see once the game hits the shelves.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually regarding to Fallout 3:
I pre-ordered it a while ago, the wait is coming to an end and I am very excited to play it, more so than Gears of War 2, actually. I've read about it, watched gameplay and conferences, and it looks to be a promising game. I see it similarly to Mass Effect, which in my opinion along with many others was an excellent game if somewhat lacking structure variety... It was reasonably innovative, blending TPS with RPG leveling. Fallout 3 appears to work similarly, but by running with a modified Oblivion engine, looks to be much more interactive. Also I like the setting, I've always liked retro sc-fi settings, like how Bioshock had a bit of steampunk blended with genetic engineering, Fallout 3 gives us a futuristic post-apocalyptic world with a 1950's spin to it. I like that.

Regarding modern game developement:
cfos has a point, a company needs money, and selling what's popular will deliver. But Simon also speaks truth, innovation is declining, sequels nowadays feel like reboots rather than revolutions [GTA: IV, Battlefield: Bad Company, even Call of Duty 4]. Companies are having clashes too; realists v.s idealists

Idealist game developer: "We need to make something unique that no one else has done!"

Realist game developer: "But this stuff sells well! Why bother with a hard developement process? We're making money!"

Idealist game developer: "But innovation and creativity can take us far!"

I'm not trying to sound biased, but you've got to give Bungie credit for trying to be innovative. True Halo 3 does not play very differently from the past installments, they did try to change things gameplay wise with 'equipment' and the like, even though it didn't change much. But they did create the nifty 'Theater' mode which actually was quite innovative, not creative though, the idea has been floating around for a while, but Bungie did deliver it. 'Forge' was also nice too, even though there are alot of mapmaking programs for PC games, even actual mapmaking ones, Bungie did bring a toned down version on the consoles and showed that it can be done.

Anyways I'm going to dismount from Bungie for a moment (Halo 3: Recon has sparked my interest Very Happy ), other games are trying to push innovation forward. The latest Alone in the Dark game kinda sucks because of it's sloppy mechanics, but it did pitch several interesting gameplay elements. We [Simon] already know quite well that Valve strives for innovation. Portal was an excellent game for bringing the unique portal-puzzle-game into the mix, we have the co-op-necesarry Team Fortress 2 which emphasized class specialization, and the ever-expanding Half-Life 2 brought the Havoc engine to full-interaction with the Gravity Gun.

Anyways my point is people are trying to be creative, but they have to market their products too. And the majority of gamers are the "I POPZ UR HEAD WIT MY BULLET LOLOLOLOL!!!" kind of people. And those kind of people are the ones who influence a game developer's decision on what to make.

We can only hope some vanguard rescues innovation and brings balance to marketing and creativity.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what actually my only problem is with Fallout 3? Everybody is gonna know about Fallout now. Every conversation where the word Fallout will be mentioned will then go like "Oh yeah, I got that game and I like blew up this city with a nuke harharharharhar" by the entire group. As opposed to someone mentioning Fallout and everybody looking like "What the hell?" except for this one guy and then you say Dogmeat and you're both looking nostalgic. Or you say Ian and you both get pissed...
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Azrael wrote:
We can only hope some vanguard rescues innovation and brings balance to marketing and creativity.

you know what happened last time someone was supposed to "bring balance" to stuff?
exactly. Jar-Jar got a role in a movie.


@Aramor: i don't partake in many gamer community conversations. is Fallout really that kind of underground, oldschool-players-only title? coz i'm sure to *clears throat* folks of my age *clears throat again* it sounds like a classic, of almost Starwarian proportions.
in other words, have the barbarians taken over already?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, most of the people my age I hang out with don't know it. I think I know like 5 other people who actually finished the game and know what the hell I'm talking about when I'm saying that I always use the Sierra Army Depot as my personal weapons cache.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sal wrote:
Azrael wrote:
We can only hope some vanguard rescues innovation and brings balance to marketing and creativity.

you know what happened last time someone was supposed to "bring balance" to stuff?
exactly. Jar-Jar got a role in a movie.
Annual Quote of the Week Award this Day goes to... Salvatore!

Well it seems I'm not really good at getting my ideas across. Maybe I should have spent more time making my arguments shorter and more elegant.

Essentially what I'm saying is this: Most modern game development does not try to push forward the boundaries of the medium, and simply try to appeal to existing target audiences, i.e. 'fraggers'. I stated that it was the innovative games that garnered the biggest audiences because such games attract new people to the medium. Improving the medium will make the medium appeal to more and more people, thus improving sales. It'd be a win-win situation for both consumers and producers if developers had ambition with their products. I already listed a few historical examples to show that this actually works (Blizzard, Bioware,and Valve to name a few are so big today because they make their games innovative). Granted some games don't make it big despite being very good, but that's usually a problem with marketing (that's it's own discussion for a different thread), but very often become cult classics anyway, which has its own ,less tangible, benefits for developers.

I also want to be clear what I mean by innovation. New ideas and features that work is innovation (ex. Half-Life 2, Portal). Improving existing designs and formulas, or the implementation thereof, is innovation (ex. World of Warcraft, Team Fortress 2) New bells and whistles is not innovation (ex. EA's sports games and the Halo sequels.) Better graphics is not innovation unless the engine itself allows for innovative gameplay (ex. Doom 3 or Unreal Tournament 3 vs. the Total War series or Crysis). Fixing broken elements or systems used in previous games is not innovation, unless that element or system was widely used beyond that developer's games (ex. Oblivion's combat system). Gameplay is not the only factor that is considered when I say innovation. Storytelling can also factor in (ex. Fallout, Half-Life 2) and so can presentation (ex. System Shock 2, Knights of the Old Republic.)
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The December (I think) Xbox magazine just reviewed this game. Have to say, I'm still looking forward to it. Unlike Oblivion, beasties/mutants/whatever will NOT level, rather they are pre-leveled. Also, unlike Oblivion, they game will "end"... which begs the question... how do you play the extra, foreseeable downloadable content...? Unfortunately, the mag dinged the 3rd person view, which is unfortunate as I like 3rd person views. Voice acting is improved (more character actors than Oblivion, although there will be familiar voices -- Liam Neason (sp?) is your "daddy".)
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallout always had some nice voice actors.

Ron Perlman was the narrator for 1 and 2, and there was a character in Fallout 1 voiced by Richard "McGyver/O'Neill" Dean Anderson.

I'm also glad to hear that the monster encounter stuff doesn't level. One of the nice things in Fallout was encountering a pack of Radscorpions in the beginning, and then barely getting out alive, while later in the game you had Power Armor and a friggin Laser Gattling when you encountered them, ensuring victory in as many turns you needed to just fire at them once and instantly killing them.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aramor© wrote:
Well, most of the people my age I hang out with don't know it. I think I know like 5 other people who actually finished the game and know what the hell I'm talking about when I'm saying that I always use the Sierra Army Depot as my personal weapons cache.


I didn't know about it until it was mentioned on this site (by you). My interest was thoroughly sparked and I am now very excited about number 3.

He he he. Radioactive scorpions...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frost wrote:
Aramor© wrote:
Well, most of the people my age I hang out with don't know it. I think I know like 5 other people who actually finished the game and know what the hell I'm talking about when I'm saying that I always use the Sierra Army Depot as my personal weapons cache.


I didn't know about it until it was mentioned on this site (by you). My interest was thoroughly sparked and I am now very excited about number 3.

He he he. Radioactive scorpions...


not sure about scorpions, but there be mutants... and they will move very fast. Something (new to me, at least) they also said in the article is that you will be able to aim at limbs and there are percentages for making each "body" shot. They also said not to go out into the woods without meds. You break your legs out there... and it will be a very long game. Not sure if they will be as hard core as Steel Batallion (sp?) for the original xbox. I have that game, though don't play it much. From what I remember, if you didn't hit the eject button before dying, the game would erase all of your previous saves. Now that is hard core.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am aware of Ron Perlman's voice work in the Fallout series. And whenever Ron Perlman says something is awesome [Fallout 3], then it is awesome. Also Liam Neeson's prescence is news to me, it seems rather awing to have Ra's al Ghul/ Qui-Gon Jinn as your father in-game.
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