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The True War Pigs
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Spock



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:43 pm    Post subject: The True War Pigs Reply with quote

*Note: I know this is a very touchy subject, especially now. Just know I am in no way attempting to offend anyone.

I've ammassed this knowledge over the course of the year 2007.

1915:

A British passenger liner is destroyed by German forces, killing 128 Americans.

1917:

The US enters formally enters World War One with the Allies: Britain, France, and Russia to save the world.

November 11, 1918:

Germany surrenders, ending World War One.

1941:

World War Two begins with the invasion of Poland by the German.

1941:

Attack on Pearl Harbor. The US formally enters World War 2.

1950:

The US enters The Korean War.

1961:

The US enters the Vietnam War after an American ship is destroyed in the Pacific Ocean.

1991:

Desert Storm begins.

2003:

US invades Iraq.

Pretty much all of you have heard of these wars. You've heard the stories of the United States being the protectors of freedom and righteousness. And no doubt you've heard that the United States is still trying to "liberate" Iraq.

The fact of the matter is, war is profit, and the more war you make, the more money.

Let's take a moment to discuss money. In today's world, money buys happiness. Everyone wants to be happy, no? People are attracted to such high-paying jobs that they wouldn't think twice before accepting whatever job.

In truth, money is worthless. American money is basically trees cut down, it has no value. It isn't backed up by gold, or silver, or any other precious metals. It's backed up by greed.

Without war, the companies that manufacture weapons would go out of business, many would lose jobs, the economy sinks into a depression, right? We've learned this from history.

The stock market crash, millions of dollars lost, and so on. The US entering World War II pulled us from the ashes of the old United States, you know, the one based on freedom and liberty. We were now the Empire of the United States. We became the dominant superpower, the USSR nowhere close. We ruled the world with an iron fist, with the ability to make war on anyone we chose, anyone we didn't like, or could make the most money exploiting.

Iraq was chosen as the next target for money making. Of course, Iraq has an incredible abundance of oil, enough to last the US a long while.

Politicians, especially our current president, have made promises to become an eco-friendly nation, like most other developed countries. However, we continue to extract the Earth's natural resources to fuel our cars, military jeeps, battleships, jets, rockets, tanks, and whatever else that needs gas. Why?

Because they really don't care about the environment, all it is, is just money money money. Its the truth. I encourage you to prove me otherwise.

Many have forseen the consequences of making war on other countries. Too bad not enough listened.

1793, George Washington's farewell address, the first in American history. President Washington warns the United States about foreign involvement in international wars. "We must remain neutral," he pleaded. Did anyone listen?

1961, Dwight D. Eisenhower's farewell address. President Eisenhower warns of the Industrial-Military Complex, basically meaning the beginning of the War Industry.

We became a militarily ready nation. Up until World War II, we had not even a professional army, let alone factories that mass produced weapons.

In this, we needed money to support our now flourishing economy.

With the veterans of World War II returning home, heroes, they were claimed to be. I don't dispute that. My grandfather was in World War II, in the Pacific. He fought his battles and came home to start a family. Just like the dreams of all the other teenagers who were sent to Europe in the 1940s. "They left as boys and came back as old men."

But back to the truth of the matter. If any new president wants to see our economy flourish, they'll keep on making war.

And to what end? The American Civil War wiped out almost all of the males in this country, and the birth rate shot down dramatically. How many men and women have to die to continue making money? The politicians play war and the people are sent to die, that's the reality. And for money, that's all it is. I despise money so much.

Now sure, people will think of those who think like me are just a bunch of idiots who get to sit around and enjoy freedom while others go out to die for that freedom. But I don't care. If Martin Luther King had said nothing about Civil Rights, who knows when there would be no segregation? If Henry David Thoreau had said nothing about Civil Disobedience, where would Martin Luther King be? Maybe by this rant, and a little political action, maybe war will end. Who knows? But how much can one person really accomplish?

As Albert Einstein once said: "There will always be war as long as there are men." It may be true, but hopefully there is a way to get around this statement.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I obviously can't speak for everyone over here, this essentially echoes the sentiment of most Europeans I know on America's foreign policy and the War on Terror.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not convinced that America enters into war for profit or that being involved in war instantly makes profit. Were that the case, the DOW should only go up, right? Ask your parents about how their retirement 401s have been doing over the last year or so if you need an example of what "war" has done and how the economy is "flourinshing". I mean American (currently) is involved in at least 2 wars right? Why is the economy down, then? Why are oil prices hovering around $100/barrel if we got all of Iraq's oil?

When specifically talking about Iraq, you neglect that it is possible that W didn't much care for the attempt on his father's life and may have just been trying to do what daddy couldn't:

http://hnn.us/articles/1000.html

Personally, I don't think that Bush is a smart man and doesn't always choose what is best. Then again, if that were the case with most Americans, then we wouldn't have all this craze over Countrywide or the other mortgage lenders who got people into houses they couldn't afford (or people buying houses they couldn't afford in the first place).

Without dismissing what you've posted, I think some of the argument is borderline shallow and lacks the depth to strongly argue what you stated -- which is why it would be hard to take offense at what you posted.

Not a bad topic for discussion or an outline for some college essay, but seriously, there is far more politicking and other factors that influence matters than the simple declarations posted above.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cfos wrote:
When specifically talking about Iraq, you neglect that it is possible that W didn't much care for the attempt on his father's life and may have just been trying to do what daddy couldn't:


I've read quite a few decent articles arguing that same point. There was a brilliant excerpt from a book (can't remember the name) published in one of the papers here outlining the influence of George senior's posse and W's efforts to get away from it. American politics make fascinating reading....
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aurelyn wrote:
While I obviously can't speak for everyone over here, this essentially echoes the sentiment of most Europeans I know on America's foreign policy and the War on Terror.


Don't you mean "Terrah?"

That's how Bush says it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool - the ads have changed to "Watch Global Propaganda Videos".
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cfos wrote:
I'm not convinced that America enters into war for profit or that being involved in war instantly makes profit. Were that the case, the DOW should only go up, right? Ask your parents about how their retirement 401s have been doing over the last year or so if you need an example of what "war" has done and how the economy is "flourinshing". I mean American (currently) is involved in at least 2 wars right? Why is the economy down, then? Why are oil prices hovering around $100/barrel if we got all of Iraq's oil?

When specifically talking about Iraq, you neglect that it is possible that W didn't much care for the attempt on his father's life and may have just been trying to do what daddy couldn't:

http://hnn.us/articles/1000.html

Personally, I don't think that Bush is a smart man and doesn't always choose what is best. Then again, if that were the case with most Americans, then we wouldn't have all this craze over Countrywide or the other mortgage lenders who got people into houses they couldn't afford (or people buying houses they couldn't afford in the first place).

Without dismissing what you've posted, I think some of the argument is borderline shallow and lacks the depth to strongly argue what you stated -- which is why it would be hard to take offense at what you posted.

Not a bad topic for discussion or an outline for some college essay, but seriously, there is far more politicking and other factors that influence matters than the simple declarations posted above.


cfos, your criticism is always welcome, and I do know for one thing that the economy is down. Gas prices are continuing to rise almost exponentially, which is crazy, because we should have Iraq's oil.

It just seems ridiculous that we're still fighting over there, and more and more troops are being sent there.

My friend was in Iraq for the summer of '07. He is in the Marine Corps. I am glad he made it back home safely, but there are so many who have died in this war. I just feel that we really need to worry about our own country, which is really messed up right now, before we start trying to change others.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spock 1701 wrote:
cfos wrote:
I'm not convinced that America enters into war for profit or that being involved in war instantly makes profit. Were that the case, the DOW should only go up, right? Ask your parents about how their retirement 401s have been doing over the last year or so if you need an example of what "war" has done and how the economy is "flourinshing". I mean American (currently) is involved in at least 2 wars right? Why is the economy down, then? Why are oil prices hovering around $100/barrel if we got all of Iraq's oil?

When specifically talking about Iraq, you neglect that it is possible that W didn't much care for the attempt on his father's life and may have just been trying to do what daddy couldn't:

http://hnn.us/articles/1000.html

Personally, I don't think that Bush is a smart man and doesn't always choose what is best. Then again, if that were the case with most Americans, then we wouldn't have all this craze over Countrywide or the other mortgage lenders who got people into houses they couldn't afford (or people buying houses they couldn't afford in the first place).

Without dismissing what you've posted, I think some of the argument is borderline shallow and lacks the depth to strongly argue what you stated -- which is why it would be hard to take offense at what you posted.

Not a bad topic for discussion or an outline for some college essay, but seriously, there is far more politicking and other factors that influence matters than the simple declarations posted above.


cfos, your criticism is always welcome, and I do know for one thing that the economy is down. Gas prices are continuing to rise almost exponentially, which is crazy, because we should have Iraq's oil.

It just seems ridiculous that we're still fighting over there, and more and more troops are being sent there.

My friend was in Iraq for the summer of '07. He is in the Marine Corps. I am glad he made it back home safely, but there are so many who have died in this war. I just feel that we really need to worry about our own country, which is really messed up right now, before we start trying to change others.


I'm glad that you took what I wrote in stride as I think you've taken a difficult topic and addressed it and I wasn't trying to be mean. Personally, I think there are any number of arguments you could take in the direction you've gone. I agree that it is ridiculous to continue the fighting over there (Iraq). However, part of me understands (while not agreeing) with the idea that America can't just pick up and leave after creating this mess.

IMO, the problem is that you've got three "parties" over in Iraq and ideally, the terrain should be divided up into 3 states. There have always been and will always be, land wars in the Middle East and what is currently happening is nothing short of a "Civil" war between rival factions which is beyond the role of America initially thought they would play -- not that I'm trying to make excuses or justifications.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, we can't leave now, but we should at least try to reduce our military force there and approach this issue diplomatically. Words can be more powerful than bullets, and killing each other won't solve anything. (Unless Predators show up, then they'll have less humans to use as Xeno hosts Razz )
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: The True War Pigs Reply with quote

i stopped reading after this gem.

Spock 1701 wrote:

1941:
World War Two begins with the invasion of Poland by the German.

i bet it took you an entire year to "amass this knowledge".
you don't know shit, my friend.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: The True War Pigs Reply with quote

Spock 1701 wrote:

In truth, money is worthless. American money is basically trees cut down, it has no value.

If I remember correctly, it's actually a cotton blend. Paper fiber in it is pretty much nonexistent.
Quote:
The stock market crash, millions of dollars lost, and so on. The US entering World War II pulled us from the ashes of the old United States, you know, the one based on freedom and liberty.

I would argue that the US was never really based on freedom and liberty. It was really just a powershift from a monarchy to a sort of aristo-oligarchy, for the most part, made up of (wealthy) landowners. The country was probably more based on equality under the eyes of the law and government.
Quote:
We became a militarily ready nation. Up until World War II, we had not even a professional army, let alone factories that mass produced weapons.

American foreign policy in the early 20th century was one based on isolationism. A great majority of the public felt bad about the people overseas but felt that the wars were Europe's problem.
Quote:
And to what end? The American Civil War wiped out almost all of the males in this country, and the birth rate shot down dramatically.

The American Civil War wasn't about money but States' Rights.
Quote:
If Martin Luther King had said nothing about Civil Rights, who knows when there would be no segregation? If Henry David Thoreau had said nothing about Civil Disobedience, where would Martin Luther King be?

If he hadn't acted, someone else would have.

Economics does play a factor in governmental decisions, but I just don't think that it is the primary motivator. The US dollar wouldn't be so weak right now if that were the case, would it? If we were generating lots and lots of money with the "War on Terror" the dollar should be buying more things than it actually does (that's how it works, right?).
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: The True War Pigs Reply with quote

Sal wrote:
i stopped reading after this gem.

Spock 1701 wrote:

1941:
World War Two begins with the invasion of Poland by the German.

i bet it took you an entire year to "amass this knowledge".
you don't know shit, my friend.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D-Day: War's over, man. Wormer dropped the big one.
Bluto: Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no! Otter: Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
[thinks hard]
Bluto: the tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!
[runs out, alone; then returns]
Bluto: What the fuck happened to the Delta I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Bluto, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard, dead! Niedermeyer...
Otter: Dead! Bluto's right. Psychotic, but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.
Bluto: We're just the guys to do it.
D-Day: Let's do it.
Bluto: LET'S DO IT!
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Satan Crime Wash



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: The True War Pigs Reply with quote

Sal wrote:
i stopped reading after this gem.

Spock 1701 wrote:

1941:
World War Two begins with the invasion of Poland by the German.

i bet it took you an entire year to "amass this knowledge".
you don't know shit, my friend.

Can't say I was impressed with his research either.

It's not national economies that profit from wars, but a small number of already rich people getting even richer. The working man (and woman) continues to get shat on.
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Spock



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: The True War Pigs Reply with quote

Sal wrote:
i stopped reading after this gem.

Spock 1701 wrote:

1941:
World War Two begins with the invasion of Poland by the German.

i bet it took you an entire year to "amass this knowledge".
you don't know shit, my friend.


Ok dude, that was an editing mistake. I had originally written the US part first, then I copied/pasted and didnt edit the year. I know what year WWII started.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: The True War Pigs Reply with quote

Ipsa wrote:

The American Civil War wasn't about money but States' Rights.


I know that, I was simply using it for statistics' sake as far as deaths go. My mistake for not clarifying.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: The True War Pigs Reply with quote

Sal wrote:
i stopped reading after this gem.

Spock 1701 wrote:

1941:
World War Two begins with the invasion of Poland by the German.

i bet it took you an entire year to "amass this knowledge".
you don't know shit, my friend.


Maybe we should read on anyway. Maybe...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

neeh, too much txt.....


ill rather lean back, have a smoke, perhaps a beer, and look at porn....
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

waffle wrote:
neeh, too much txt.....


ill rather lean back, have a smoke, perhaps a beer, and look at porn....


finally some words of wisdom.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, let's all jump on the bandwagon and insult Spock, wooooo!

It's narrow-minded people like you who can't stand new ideas and sweep them to the side, ridiculing those who make them.

I'll make sure next time you have something important to say I'll nitpick every little flaw in it and use it against you.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spock 1701 wrote:
It's narrow-minded people like you who can't stand new ideas and sweep them to the side, ridiculing those who make them.

Sorry that you feel we're picking on you, but examining American involvement in wars as purely economically motivated is not exactly a new idea...

@ Chainsaw: You sound like you've been reading marxist historians. Razz
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spock 1701 wrote:
I'll make sure next time you have something important to say I'll nitpick every little flaw in it and use it against you.


YOU WOULDN'T DARE! *cries*
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright people: argue all you want, but try to keep it civil and on-topic.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

America profited quite a bit from the WW2. The guns they "gave" to allies weren't free. The support they gave to reconstruct the europe afterwards weren't free. But i think that WW2 was the only war in the 20th century which really was economically and especially politicly "good" for America.

A country never truly profits from a war, only the weapon manufacturers, private security companies, mercenaries and such. It's a too big of a risk to start a war only for the need to gain profit. The Iraq is good example of it. It's profitable for the small group but for the country it's a waste of time, money and diplomatic relations. The government isn't the same as the country. It's true that some of the members of the government did profit from the war ie. Dick Cheney -> Halliburton. But the country has suffered and will suffer from the war.

My two cents.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do agree that America goes to war for profit, well at least there government, but the real thing that bothers me is there foreign policy,health care, and of course Fox news. Sad
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as boddicke says in robocop: guns guns guns!
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