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Aurelyn
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or we could give every kid a gun and wait until evolutionary pressure produces bulletproof children.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sal wrote:
Munan wrote:
Hence my pragmatic approach. Since it appears that there are certain social forces (e.g. nutcases copying each other) causing high school shootings and since we can establish that these tend not to spread to countries where the owning of guns is restricted, let's restrict the availability of guns as long as these forces are at work. That sounds more rational to me, than say that you'll work on the social forces, but as long as you haven't solved those, you'll still allow the nutcases access to guns...


and that's my argument exactly.


So.... what do you think becomes of thes "nutcases"? Do they sit there and say to themselves: "Well, I really would like to go on a school rampage but since there are no guns available I might as well deal with the (insert persecution here) and become a contributing member of society."

As for Munan's comment:
"Some kids (I'd think a majority, actually)just bought theirs in some shop."

That's a somewhat ignorant comment. It would be like me saying that people in the Netherlands can just go to any Wal-mart and buy drugs since drugs are legal.

While it isn't the best form of checking, there is what's referred to as the "yellow sheet" which is a two-page form that needs to be filled out and the store owner has to call in and have a quick background check. Also, state laws vary -- an example, in order to possess a handgun in New York, I believe the current law states that you must be licensed in New York to carry it. There was a recent case where a guy had bought a car in... oh I don't know, I think it was Pennsylvania or South Carolina -- somewhere South of NY, and he bought a ticket to fly out and pick it up. He legally checked his gun at the airport, but his plane got re-route due to weather and upon landing in New York he was arrested even though he legally checked his gun before boarding and wasn't intentially going to go to NY. Now if you had said that most of the kids got their guns at gun shows, that would have been a little less ignorant because sales at "gun shows" are somewhat different that sales at a shop (when it is considered a "private" sale).
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
But as long as that's not the case, keep the damn thing closed.

You're going to have to clarify to me by which you mean as "that's not the case"--the people's behavior, the malfunctioning of theme parks, or ideology of whatever. 'Cause I'm reading it as you're saying that either guns are bad or people are bad but not both and that arguing doesn't solve anything. But maybe I've misread what you've said.

Also, I like the gun/theme park comparison because that tells me that guns are fun. Wink

Edit: This is the sort of stuff that goes on over here when people become overprotective and paranoid.
Hitman Offed
Toy guns are bad and shouldn't be sold
Because movies and toy guns are the real problem and make people want to shoot other people with real guns because they think it's a cool thing to do.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ipsa wrote:


Also, I like the gun/theme park comparison because that tells me that guns are fun. Wink



lol. Most definately, fun.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I hate theme parks.

cfos wrote:
That's a somewhat ignorant comment.


Hence the "I think" in my post. Meaning I'm well aware of any possible ignorance on my part. But even if you fill out a form, you still get it in a shop, right? Or a gun show. Or whatever. What I meant was that they bought it themselves and did not nick it from their parents.

Ipsa wrote:
You're going to have to clarify to me by which you mean as "that's not the case"--the people's behavior, the malfunctioning of theme parks, or ideology of whatever.


I don't care. It could be either one of them and in any case closing it down until the issue is solved seems like a good idea to me. Not on any principle, but because people are getting killed.
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cfos



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:


cfos wrote:
That's a somewhat ignorant comment.


Hence the "I think" in my post. Meaning I'm well aware of any possible ignorance on my part. But even if you fill out a form, you still get it in a shop, right? Or a gun show. Or whatever. What I meant was that they bought it themselves and did not nick it from their parents.



May I suggest that in these instances you use the word "guess" rather than "think". When a person says "guess" they, more often than not, imply a sense of ignorance. Of course, if you choose to continue to perform post-hoc analyses of the meaning of your posts, I'll just assume that everytime you say "think" in the above context you believe yourself
to (possibly?) be ignorant -- like here:

"As far as gun control goes, I think that since high school shootings seem to be becoming somewhat popular these days and it's spreading across the borders, restriction might be a wise thing for a while."


Very Happy

Sarcasm aside, in answer to your question, no.

Let me qualify that -- yes, sometimes a person does go to the store, fill out the form, get approval and leaves the store with the gun. Other times, and I've seen this too, people are either refused or are told that there is a "wait period". The wait period is generally 3 days during which further background investigation is conducted. If nothing comes up, the store can sell the gun. There may be individual state regulations on this that I am not aware of.

I was also just reminded of a popular bumper sticker I used to see in the South -- "Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun!" The "humor" in this sticker is that Kennedy killed someone while drunk driving and ran/drove from the scene. Not that alcohol is as deadly as guns... Besides, I'm sure if we further analyzed the situation, cars are more deadly than both alcohol and guns.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cfos wrote:
Besides, I'm sure if we further analyzed the situation, cars are more deadly than both alcohol and guns.

Or that it's enough of a problem that there is a vehicular manslaughter charge/misdemeanor.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cfos wrote:
Besides, I'm sure if we further analyzed the situation, cars are more deadly than both alcohol and guns.


Which is why we try to legislate in such a way that we can do something about traffic accidents. Also, aren't you throwing the two wrongs make it right argument around here? Because car accidents happen, we should not outlaw guns? If not, what's the relevance?

Also, judging from your story, I suppose that if I have never commited a crime, but something goes snap in my head and I decide to one day shoot down all my students, all the background investigation in the world is not going to find that out if I manage to keep up a sane appearance.

But my students would still be dead in the end.

Please understand me correctly. I don't think guns should or should not be outlawed on principle. I just think that apparently in this time and age, they should.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:


Also, judging from your story, I suppose that if I have never commited a crime, but something goes snap in my head and I decide to one day shoot down all my students, all the background investigation in the world is not going to find that out if I manage to keep up a sane appearance.

But my students would still be dead in the end.

Please understand me correctly. I don't think guns should or should not be outlawed on principle. I just think that apparently in this time and age, they should.


Judging from your story, I'm guessing that should your mind go "snap", as you describe, then either:

1) Your mind will go "snap" again and not kill your students because after much searching you were unable to find a gun, or

2) Your mind goes snap and you will kill your students regardless of the method and/or instruments used.

Either way, you are making for a poor argument. If a mind goes "snap", obviously, we are dealing with a psychological problem that is going to occur with or without the presence of guns. Let me example:

If you mind goes snap and you plan on killing your students, you will attempt to do so without a thought as to the existance of guns. That tends to be the case when people's mind goes "snap". If people are, as you describe, then we really need to put an end to all forms of televised violence, boxing, football (soccer to, Americans), the news and other instances where people lack the capacity to separate what they see with what they will do when their mind goes "snap" in a society that lacks guns. Look, I understand what you are trying to say, but come on! Is this your best example? Why not use this one -- Due to the presence of guns in society there is a greater chance of a murder evolving from a minor altercation such as an experience of road rage where one driver cuts the other off and proceeds to further escalate the situation by displaying the "finger" to the person who got cut off. Imagine that the person that got cut off is quite pissed and also in possession of a gun. The chance that greater violence would occur is greater, thus guns should be prohibited.

Interesting link I found:

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/wuvc01.txt
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cfos wrote:
Look, I understand what you are trying to say, but come on! Is this your best example? Why not use this one -- Due to the presence of guns in society there is a greater chance of a murder evolving from a minor altercation such as an experience of road rage where one driver cuts the other off and proceeds to further escalate the situation by displaying the "finger" to the person who got cut off. Imagine that the person that got cut off is quite pissed and also in possession of a gun. The chance that greater violence would occur is greater, thus guns should be prohibited.

Interesting link I found:

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/wuvc01.txt


Wow, nearly everyone has presented this argument to you, and you've argued against it every time, until now. What gives? You just like arguing, don't you!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aurelyn wrote:


Wow, nearly everyone has presented this argument to you, and you've argued against it every time, until now. What gives? You just like arguing, don't you!


Has it? It seemed to me most situations involved school shootings rather than shootings or gun violence that I've just described:

Twisty's comments were about school shootings... Sal did talk about restrictions in general concerning availability... You agreed with Sal on restrictions although suggested banning of handguns... Simon talked about extreme restrictions, but not banning... Sal spoke again about my belief/support in the 2nd ammendment... Ipsa has kinda sat on the fence and has pointed out historical similarities while posing philosophical ?s... Munan doesn't agree with my comparison of alcohol and guns, but manly speaks towards high school shootings... although I'm not really seeing what Munan was saying about "And planes are not as easy to use to kill people as they once were, in the olden days."... he waxes philosophic about why people would want to own a gun... you post again regarding the ownership of a tool designed to kill people... I respond to a bunch... Simon responds about individual rights, etc... Ipsa waxes philosophic, also relates high-school shooting... PAGE 2... I ramble about historical numbers of killings... Ok.. Here Sal states that less availability of guns will equal less killings...*According to the link I posted -- guns are more frequently used in intimidation and knives more frequently are used in harm in assalts:

"Assault

Victims were injured in a third of all assaults by offenders
armed with blunt objects/other weapons. Less than a third of
assaults by offenders armed with guns or knives resulted
in injury (13% and 26%, respectively). Victims of
offenders armed with a knife or sharp object were the most
likely to sustain a serious injury; 12% of such offenses
resulted in serious injury."

Granted, I'm not denying that guns do injure/kill people, but I don't feel they are necessarily different than, say hunting/large knives. How many people own something like that, yet never use them for hunting? Just a thought.


There isn't too much across the next few posts... Blaster chimes in saying that banning guns isn't going to remove them from society... which I agree with... Munan rambles about cultural differences then goes back to high school shootings... *Oh, for the record there are quite a few states in the US where guns are available and high school shootings DON'T occur...* followed by a brief disagrement over what constituted the argument between me and Munan... Blaster reiterates... Sal and Munan agree about "societies changed" and banning is the best course of action because murders occur with guns... Munan goes back to high school shootings... Munan refutes my argument, again... brings up his students and "snapping"... then I present a non-high school scenario which I think better exemplifies what Munan is getting at (?) I'm not seeing where this scenario was presented. Really. People were generally making broad statements and scenarios, except when dealing with high school shootings.

I'm not really seeing what you've said Aurelyn... Where has everyone presented this argument? Does it have to do with the link I provided?

Edit: Regarding the idea of banning guns to prevent murders... Should it come to pass in the US, I feel it would be as effective as the war on drugs. Nothing (significant) would change -- as Blaster indicated. Thus, I feel tighter restrictions, penalities, etc., are the way to go. As often is the case, philosophy is good on paper and discussion, but horribly bad and unemployable in practice. Frankly, I'm a little more concerned that drugs are more freely available than guns.

As an aside, I do enjoy a good argument. I also believe in more strict regualtions for gun availability in the US. I'm also for more harsh sentences for gun offenders.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ipsa pretty much believes that should anyone break into her residence, then she should be able to physically harm them in anyway possible and not have to suffer legal recourse (e.g. robber suing her for damages).

She doesn't own any firearms, but sees no problem with people having them. She approves of restrictions and strict background checks (even in Texas where people think that everyone is gun-happy you have to go through a state and federal background check for a concealed permit as well as take gun safety and legality classes), but not all-out banning. Especially when the main argument is that guns are bad. If one is taking an anti-violence stance, then talk about anything classified as a weapon and not just guns.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol. Wasn't too sure where you stood and didn't want to put words into your mouth, but cfos agrees with Ipsa.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And now we, for the most part, seem to argue over nothing. I have to agree with Ipsa and cfos' comments about the prohibition and drug trafficking: banning sometimes just makes things worse as a black market blooms.

cfos wrote:
According to the link I posted -- guns are more frequently used in intimidation and knives more frequently are used in harm in assaults.
"Guns for show, knives for a pro."
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Munan
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cfos wrote:

1) Your mind will go "snap" again and not kill your students because after much searching you were unable to find a gun


which would mean that it's a good thing guns are not readily available? My point exactly...

Quote:
2) Your mind goes snap and you will kill your students regardless of the method and/or instruments used.


Then tell me why high school shootings (i teach at a university, by the way) do not occur in countries where guns are not widely available?

I know it isn't the other way around - as i have stated before, there are societies where guns are widely available and high school shootings don't occur - but still: empirical fact here suggests guns seem to be a factor. Of course guns don't kill people, people do, but they use guns and guns are much more effective in killing larger numbers. If my mind went snap and I only had a knife, I would not be able to do as much damage as I were with a gun.

I could of course load them all on a bus, and drive the bus into a canyon (which we don't have in the Netherlands), but I find myself wondering: would it give me the same rush of raw power I would experience if I stood there like Rambo, pulling out my guns and go budda-budda-budda-budda.

Ah, anyway, I think Simon was right we're ending up pretty much arguing about nothing. All of us agree there should be tighter restrictions - then it comes down to the details.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cfos wrote:
As an aside, I do enjoy a good argument. I also believe in more strict regualtions for gun availability in the US. I'm also for more harsh sentences for gun offenders.

ta-dah! debate over.
let's all get some tacos now.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I already had a taco last week and it made me really sick. The chicken was all raw and the grease was mighty thick. The rice was all rancid and the beans were so hard, I got kinda dizzy eating all the lard.
Also, there was aphids on the lettuce and I ate every one and after I was done the salsa melted off my tongue. Pieces of tortilla got stuck in my throat and the stains on my clothes burned a hole through my coat.
By then, my stomach was trembling and I broke out in a rash, I was so dry and thirsty and I didn't have any cash.
So I went and found a hose, tore off all my clothes, turned on the water and it shot right up my nose.
Some old lady came along and she thought I was a freak, so she beat me with her handbag until I could hardly speak. I was lying there naked, my body badly bruised, in a pool of my own blood, unconscious and confused.
Then the cops came and got me and threw me in their van and I woke up on the ceiling and I couldnt find my hand. They took me to the judge his eyes were glowing red and the courtroom was filled with witches and the dead. Well the sheriff was a hell-hound, with fangs and claws and the prisoners were tied up and chained to the walls. The air was getting thick, the smoke was getting thicker and the judge read the verdict which was "cut off his head!".
Then they placed me on the altar and they raised up the axe. My head was about to explode when I noticed the marshall stacks. I noticed all the smoke machines, cameras and the lights and some guy with a microphone
running around dancing in tights. And I noticed the crew and the band playing down below and I realized I was in a rock video.
So I went and joined the band and I went out on tour and I smoked a lot of heroin and I passed out in manure. I made out with the groupies, started fires backstage, made a lot of money and I gave it all away
Then the band got killed, so I started a solo career and I won all the awards and I drank all the beer.

I'm telling you, tacos need to be banned!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon, again nice use of movie quote (Lock, Stock....)



"cfos wrote:

1) Your mind will go "snap" again and not kill your students because after much searching you were unable to find a gun


which would mean that it's a good thing guns are not readily available? My point exactly... "

Hmmm... I'm not sure I find this scenario a believable one. If it were, I'd be more concerned with mental health issues rather than guns. If you were to posit the mind going "snap", finding a gun and a kiling rampage ensues, wouldn't you also have to posit a mind going "snap" finding porn and committing rape? I guess porn shouldn't be readily available. Or is the whole "snapping" EXCLUSIVE to guns...? Personally, I feel this argument is nothing more than a plea for greater funding to do research into what causes a mind to go "snap" rather than additional legislation regarding guns.

As for your question regarding why school shooting occur... well, I think there are some deep rooted psychological and sociological factors that contribute to a desire in these people to do harm. Some people can only stand so much abuse whether it be mental, physical or both before a mind goes "snap". Once a mind goes snap, a gun could be an easy alternative. Or perhaps, this person can't find a gun and begins on a smaller scale by torturing animals and over the course of years becomes a sociopath and finds guns to be to "quick" to kill and finds alternative courses of delivering pain.

As has been said, there really isn't much of an argument as the collective group seems to be in some form of an agreement in policy if not philosophy.

Oh yeah, thank you for forever ruining the enjoyment of a taco. There is a good reseviour quote in there somewhere.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, it's the lyrics (well, almost) of Beck's song "Satan Gave me a Taco"
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
Actually, it's the lyrics (well, almost) of Beck's song "Satan Gave me a Taco"


The fact that it rhymed should have tipped people off, really.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you mean like "hey, it rhymes, it has to be Beck!"?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, no. More like, hey, it rhymes, Munan's posts are unusually lyrical today, something's up!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aurelyn wrote:
Well, no. More like, hey, it rhymes, Munan's posts are unusually lyrical today, something's up!


i think you meant "even more lyrical than ususal."
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So another teenager walks into a mall, sprays innocent shoppers with bullets, then turns the gun on himself yesterday, this time in Nebraska (only hours after Bush was there but that's probably not related).

How long before the crackdown, folks?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From an article in the McPaper:

"Records in Sarpy and Washington counties showed Hawkins had a felony drug conviction and several misdemeanor cases filed against him, including an arrest 11 days before the shooting for having alcohol as a minor."

Huh... drug convictions and alcohol possession... interesting.

"...She also told the newspaper that he had been fired from McDonald's after being accused of stealing $17 from his till at the restaurant."

Obviously, NOT and employee of the month.


"How long before the crackdown, folks?"

Crackdown on what, exactly? Drugs, drinking, guns? All of the above?
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