Alien Loves Predator Forum Index
         
FAQFAQ    SearchSearch    RegisterRegister    ProfileProfile    Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages    Log inLog in 
Guns and knives
    page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Alien Loves Predator Forum Index -> The Soap Box
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
cfos



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 2901
Location: everyday I'm hustlin'

PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon: Riot shields in schools may be beneficial, assuming of course that there are people that know how to use them and, of course, they aren't stolen as much of school property often is. Being that you are seemingly very philosophical (not trying to pass judgement) -- I'd be interested in what you thought/think of Douglas Coupland's book: "Hey Nostradamus!" Actually, I think Douglas Coupland is outstanding and everyone should read all his books, but...

Also, I was simply making a statement and a belief I hold (the last of your quoted sections)-- not trying to criticise or put words into peoples' mouths, just a statement. If you think about it, we are far more "civilized" today than in years past when there were public hangings. I would love to see statistics relative to the number of murders committed in say.... 1660 and today -- on a per capita basis. I'm just picking that date randomly as a time before the existance of guns. People are going to kill and/or do harm regardless of the existance of guns. Also, laws, regulations and restrictions will only go so far. Look at how prohibited/restricted/outlawed drugs and alcohol (to minors) are... Clearly, simple laws don't work anyway.

There is no spoon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sal



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 4628
Location: home and such

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

darling cfos wrote:
To the general publica: Relative to the assumptions that tragedies such as school killings would be non-existant with the absence of guns... not sure I buy this.

and
darling but somewhat repetitive cfos wrote:
People are going to kill and/or do harm regardless of the existance of guns.

but this is exactly what i said in the first place. no guns does't mean no killing. but no guns does mean potentially less killing, as killing becomes at least slightly harder and less mass-scale. we obviously aren't going to eliminate violence completely, but isn't a significant drop, hell, even a minor drop in the number of casualties (or potential casualties) worth doign whatever we can?

i think Munan hit it: pragmatic not principal. let's ban it, regulate it, control it, let's implement any provisional steps we can think of, let's err (because we're bound to) but let's do something, before we are able to come up with a brilliant masterstroke that changes people's mentality and solves the problem once and for all (ain't gonna happen, i know, just being idealistic here.)
_________________
i have no time for anal love
Simon_Says wrote:
Sal, you're my favourite member again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Digitaaliklosetti



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 1850

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sal wrote:

i'm curious as to what Digit has to say on the subject though.

why
_________________
bitchez n hose
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Simon_Says



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 6823
Location: Being generally opposing.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ipsa wrote:
The collective judgment is not more valid than individual judgment. If at a public referendum the final vote only passed because 58% voted yes to whatever, are the 42% who voted no to be pushed away so easily? Or even if it was a two-thirds approval, it is still a sizable portion of the population that is effectively ignored. The people are more easily swayed into voting one way than is one person (there's a passage in Herodotus about this, so it's not a new view). All sorts of stuff gets passed out of fear, like all of the travel regulations that are now in place. Something intended for good, but is really mostly an inconvenience.
Democracy truly is the worst form of government after everything else we tried. Still, what other option is available?

Ipsa wrote:
If school shootings hadn't happened, would you have the same thoughts about gun control? Personally, I'm more concerned about the guy standing on the street corner looking to rob someone and his having a weapon than a kid who might flip out. But maybe that's because it's a more likely situation and I live outside of Philly, which has a pretty high homicide rate right now.
I'm actually primarily concerned with gang wars, which is an ongoing problem in my town.

cfos wrote:
Simon: Riot shields in schools may be beneficial, assuming of course that there are people that know how to use them and, of course, they aren't stolen as much of school property often is. Being that you are seemingly very philosophical (not trying to pass judgement) -- I'd be interested in what you thought/think of Douglas Coupland's book: "Hey Nostradamus!" Actually, I think Douglas Coupland is outstanding and everyone should read all his books, but...
I'll try to get it at the library. I'll report back when done.

cfos wrote:
Also, I was simply making a statement and a belief I hold (the last of your quoted sections)-- not trying to criticise or put words into peoples' mouths, just a statement. If you think about it, we are far more "civilized" today than in years past when there were public hangings. I would love to see statistics relative to the number of murders committed in say.... 1660 and today -- on a per capita basis. I'm just picking that date randomly as a time before the existance of guns. People are going to kill and/or do harm regardless of the existance of guns. Also, laws, regulations and restrictions will only go so far. Look at how prohibited/restricted/outlawed drugs and alcohol (to minors) are... Clearly, simple laws don't work anyway.
Yes they will, but gun availability can be controlled. Quite effectively. And they can be tracked even easier. Drugs & booze can be made in a basement, guns need a factory. If it's possible to limit what evils are done in society, then by all means we should.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Sal



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 4628
Location: home and such

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Digitaaliklosetti wrote:
Sal wrote:

i'm curious as to what Digit has to say on the subject though.

why

because.
_________________
i have no time for anal love
Simon_Says wrote:
Sal, you're my favourite member again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
cfos



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 2901
Location: everyday I'm hustlin'

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sal -- I do think we have common ground on somethings, but I disagree with, perhaps, yours and Munan's stand on banning. While many things, as you say, may look good either philosophically, pragmatically or on paper, they won't work in practice. Having that be the case, at least in America due to the 2nd ammendment, the argument becomes moot as they will not be banned. Restricting is another thing, which I don't think anyone is, necessarily, against.

Of course, everyone needs to ask these questions:
1) Do you know more about the issue than the politicans/policy makers
2) If you answered "yes" then it is part of your civic responsibility to do something to educate those in "power"
3) If you answered "yes" and are too busy and important to do anything about it, then you just need to shutdafuckup about it and wait for osmosis to proceed.

Simon: you do have a point about the synthesis of drugs and alcohol and that is a big difference between guns and drugs and/or alcohol. Actually, many pharmacies over here have removed cold medicines that contain ephedrine as it is often used in the synthesis of meth.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Simon_Says



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 6823
Location: Being generally opposing.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goddammit Munan, I just noticed one of my posts just disappeared!

Is there any way of communicating with the politicians other than lobby groups and connections? Cause the ton of letters and emails that they get are just thrown away, I'm guessing.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Munan
Moderator


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 30 May 2005
Posts: 3232
Location: Living on my own

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Simon: Yes, something went wrong when splitting the thread, but I inserted it integrally as a quote in Sal's Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:45 am post. That was taking some liberties, I know, but better then just letting it disappear completely, right?
_________________
The Justified Ancient of Mu Mu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sal



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 4628
Location: home and such

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

but but but you've violated my post! i look like a jerk now, quoting stuff and never even relating to them! what will the new members think of me? and don't forget that among the new members there are potential chicks!
ok, i'll stop.
_________________
i have no time for anal love
Simon_Says wrote:
Sal, you're my favourite member again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ipsa



Gender: Gender:Female
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 1631
Location: Wherever God takes me.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sal wrote:
don't forget that among the new members there are potential chicks!

I don't think you really have to worry about that...

For the ladies, how does it go, "the odds are good, but so are the goods"? Something like that. Razz
_________________
"Yeast devil! Back to the oven that baked you!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Alternate Spideygal



Gender: Gender:Female
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 3222
Location: Any where a friendly neighborhood Spider would be.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol! I can definetly agree with that one, Ipsa.
_________________

Married to Azrael.
Queen of Innuendo.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Blaster
Moderator


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 2544
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that this is quite the cliché, but if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. By which I mean than banning guns in a legal sense isn't necessarily going to prevent people from getting them. And somebody who is going to use a gun in a crime is unlikely to care much about the illegality of possessing the gun in the first case. Meanwhile, honest citizens are deprived of the right to defend their homes and loved ones because of the law.

I know how the argument goes: if only so and so hadn't had a gun, he wouldn't have been able to perpetrate such a horrendous crime. But it's really not the gun, it's the individual, and if one were to think that that person could have been denied a gun, had they really desired it, I would say that that is probably an overly-idealistic sentiment.
_________________
Context is everything.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Satan Crime Wash



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 1980

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sal wrote:
and don't forget that among the new members there are potential chicks!

Potential chicks? You mean like ladyboys that haven't had the op?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Alternate Spideygal



Gender: Gender:Female
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 3222
Location: Any where a friendly neighborhood Spider would be.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How'd you find out Chainsaw?!
_________________

Married to Azrael.
Queen of Innuendo.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Azrael



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 4810
Location: AWOL no more

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want so sound like a Grammar Nazi, but...

'"Knifes" is the improper way of saying the plural form of 'knife', it should be "Knives"

Just letting ya know...
_________________
Only the strongest will survive.

Married to SpideyGirl.


Last edited by Azrael on Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:04 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Munan
Moderator


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 30 May 2005
Posts: 3232
Location: Living on my own

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What the hell are you talking about? Ahem...


Blaster, I understand what you're saying, but I don't think anybody is really protected when everybody owns a gun. I also think it's psychological. You come from a country where the common sense leans towards the right to own guns. Therefore, you wouldn't feel safe if guns were outlawed.

I come from a country where until recently, even police officers didn't always carry a gun and the availability of guns is very restricted. I wouldn't feel safe if we would 'americanise' our gun laws.

In the end, it's a mixture of 'the individual' and the availability of guns. It is a fact that high school shootings and the like occur way more often in countries where guns are widely available - but there are countries where guns are widely available where high school shootings never occur.

However, since it isn't the other way around, I'd still go for my pragmatic approach I proposed a few posts ago.
_________________
The Justified Ancient of Mu Mu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Aurelyn
Moderator


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 3578
Location: Aw Hell No!

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Azrael wrote:
I don't want so sound like a Grammer Nazi, but...

'"Knifes" is the improper way of saying the plural form of 'knife', it should be "Knives"


I don't really want to sound like one either, but "Grammar" is spelt with an "a", not an "e".
_________________
Da Fro-mastah of da aLp Forums!

Master Chainsaw wrote:
Aurelyn becomes enraged by imbecilic displays of illiteracy, as is his wont.


Simon_Says wrote:
Sal would know. He stole many jobs from guys named Shaun.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cfos



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 2901
Location: everyday I'm hustlin'

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan's post [sic]:
(i) I don't think anybody is really protected when everybody owns a gun.
(ii) I also think it's psychological.
(iii) You come from a country where the common sense leans towards the right to own guns.

Therefore, you wouldn't feel safe if guns were outlawed.

No sure I can follow this argument.

Not everyone here owns a gun.
I do agree that psychological factors weigh in.
I'm not sure who you spoke to, but I wouldn't necessarily agree that it is "common sense" to own a gun. It a "right" as stated in the 2nd ammendment, which was written at a time when there was much consternation over the English. In fact many people choose not to own a gun and feel quite safe and would disagree with your statement.

Nevertheless, you are entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else, including me. Of course, if you base your argument on the theory that "high school shootings" is correlated with the "gun availablity" then why haven't there been shootings in Texas rather than Colorado or, if you are going to include college, Virgina?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Aramor



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 14141
Location: On a cyborg unicorn pony!

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
I wouldn't feel safe if we would 'americanise' our gun laws.


I'd pity the fools living near me. I mean, if I was able to buy a gun... and I mean, you know how often I'm pretty drunk... people is gonna die!!!

But I won't let you know where I live because I'm so good with a rifle you don't wanna come near me!!!

Sorry, just had to include that last part.
_________________
Photoshopperholic wrote:
Mighty Lord Aramor


Fail of the day:
Syn wrote:
your balls didn't get suck
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Blaster
Moderator


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 2544
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? Ahem...


Blaster, I understand what you're saying, but I don't think anybody is really protected when everybody owns a gun. I also think it's psychological. You come from a country where the common sense leans towards the right to own guns. Therefore, you wouldn't feel safe if guns were outlawed.


Actually, I am a bit more ambivalent than you might think, but I can see both sides of the issue. I have never actually fired a gun in my life, but my dad had (and still has) a gun cabinet full of rifles and shotguns when my siblings and I were growing up, and we knew not to mess with them. Nobody was every injured because of them.

Munan wrote:
but there are countries where guns are widely available where high school shootings never occur.


My point exactly. That points to the fact that it's not the availability of guns that is the issue, but rather larger social forces. Yes, you might say that a lack of guns makes it impossible for a person to commit a crime involving guns, but, if a person were determined enough to commit said crime, I don't think that a law would get in their way.
_________________
Context is everything.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Azrael



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 4810
Location: AWOL no more

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aurelyn wrote:
Azrael wrote:
I don't want so sound like a Grammer Nazi, but...

'"Knifes" is the improper way of saying the plural form of 'knife', it should be "Knives"


I don't really want to sound like one either, but "Grammar" is spelt with an "a", not an "e".


My deepest apolgies.
_________________
Only the strongest will survive.

Married to SpideyGirl.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Munan
Moderator


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 30 May 2005
Posts: 3232
Location: Living on my own

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cfos wrote:
Munan's post [sic]:
(i) I don't think anybody is really protected when everybody owns a gun.
(ii) I also think it's psychological.
(iii) You come from a country where the common sense leans towards the right to own guns.

Therefore, you wouldn't feel safe if guns were outlawed.

No sure I can follow this argument.


Because it's not my argument.

Quote:

Munan wrote:
but there are countries where guns are widely available where high school shootings never occur.


My point exactly. That points to the fact that it's not the availability of guns that is the issue, but rather larger social forces.


Hence my pragmatic approach. Since it appears that there are certain social forces (e.g. nutcases copying each other) causing high school shootings and since we can establish that these tend not to spread to countries where the owning of guns is restricted, let's restrict the availability of guns as long as these forces are at work. That sounds more rational to me, than say that you'll work on the social forces, but as long as you haven't solved those, you'll still allow the nutcases access to guns...
_________________
The Justified Ancient of Mu Mu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ipsa



Gender: Gender:Female
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 1631
Location: Wherever God takes me.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
let's restrict the availability of guns as long as these forces are at work.

So, pretty much until there aren't any more humans?

Also, where are the kids getting these guns? Aren't some of 'em just taking them from their parents or some other relative? In that case, it kinda makes it harder to place the blame solely on authorized/legal gun access. Gotta get people to lock up their stuff.
_________________
"Yeast devil! Back to the oven that baked you!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sal



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 4628
Location: home and such

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
Hence my pragmatic approach. Since it appears that there are certain social forces (e.g. nutcases copying each other) causing high school shootings and since we can establish that these tend not to spread to countries where the owning of guns is restricted, let's restrict the availability of guns as long as these forces are at work. That sounds more rational to me, than say that you'll work on the social forces, but as long as you haven't solved those, you'll still allow the nutcases access to guns...


and that's my argument exactly.
_________________
i have no time for anal love
Simon_Says wrote:
Sal, you're my favourite member again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Munan
Moderator


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 30 May 2005
Posts: 3232
Location: Living on my own

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ipsa wrote:
Munan wrote:
let's restrict the availability of guns as long as these forces are at work.

So, pretty much until there aren't any more humans?


Well, I did acknowledge that there are societies where guns are available to most and there are no high school shootings, so apparently not.

Quote:
Also, where are the kids getting these guns? Aren't some of 'em just taking them from their parents or some other relative? In that case, it kinda makes it harder to place the blame solely on authorized/legal gun access. Gotta get people to lock up their stuff.


Well, that's just some of them. Some kids (I'd think a majority, actually)just bought theirs in some shop. And anyway, if the parents wouldn't have had guns lying around, their neglecting wouldn't have been as disastrous, so even then gun control does solve some of the problems. Sure, by all means and purposes, lets raise the world to look after their stuff, but until everybody is more responsible, lets make sure their stuff doesn't include dangerous guns.

It's like a theme park where lots of accidents occur. And while everybody is discussing like crazy whether theme parks are hazardous or not on principle, and should or should not be banned, people are still killed by the malfunctioning themepark.

Better close the themepark until it's safe instead of turning it into a matter of ideology and doing nothing.

Or, if it's the people's behaviour causing the accidents, teach them how to behave properly before opening the theme park again.

But as long as that's not the case, keep the damn thing closed. Yes, that's restricting people's freedom, but a government's decisions always mean a restricion of some person's freedom.
_________________
The Justified Ancient of Mu Mu


Last edited by Munan on Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:44 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Alien Loves Predator Forum Index -> The Soap Box All times are GMT - 5 Hours
    page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group