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The war in Iran
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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aramor the First wrote:
Wait, are you calling me intolerant to other people? I'm gonna back away from the keyboard now...


If the boot fits....

I was making a statement regarding the one(s) who decided to remove the posts regarding creation vs evolution at the point where I thought I was making a very sensible and logical argument. Whether anyone here agrees or not, I believe the argument should stand on its own merit, and if it is not worthy of debate, then no one will debate it...if it is, then bring it on.

Aramor, as much of a problem as I have with pot smokers and people who think what you think...I don't feel there is any reason to delete your posts! It's your right to speak your mind - one of the main reasons MY country was founded - however misguided you may be. But on your side, I'll give you this...you're young yet...if you get to be my age and still belive the way you do, then that's different.
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Telveryon



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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The posts haven't been deleted, they have moved here by Munan, I belive.
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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, allright, Beers all around, sorry I over reacted (wipes egg off face) Embarassed
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't mind a war, as long as no one gets hurt.

But, if we don't address the Mine Shaft Gap before we start the Final War, well, we may find out that it was a bad idea after all.

I'm just sayin...
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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love that stupid movie!
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I was watching the best movie in the world, the other day (which just happens to be Baseketball) and playing the best drinking game in the world (you drink every time someone says 'Dude' in Baseketball) and suddenly I said to my drinking buddy, hey, "What should we do about Iran?"

So he asks me, "Since when do you give a shit about anything even remotely political?"

"Never, really. Every politician I've ever seen is untrustworthy and only motivated by self-interest which is cleverly disguised through idealism. The political party system is less about trying to better the country than to further the club... club referring to political party. I didn't vote, because I honestly can't tell the difference between the whole slimy lot of them, and after all, how is democracy any different from all other forms of government, where those most capable of manipulating the masses take power?

I do like the whole checks and balances thing, though."

"He said 'dude' while you were talking three times. Drink."

I took three gulps of my cold, smooth J.W.Dundee's Honey Brown (which just happens to be the best beer in the world).

"So what should we do about Iran?"

"Dunno. We're leaving North Korea alone."

"That's cause they've already got nukes."

"They're still a psychotic, totalitarian dictatorship."

"Yeah, but North Korea doesn't have suicide bombers. In a sense, isn't a country like Iran nuking the U.S. a lot like a suicide bombing on a massive scale?"

"Maybe. He said 'dude'."

I finished my beer. While I went to get another one, I said:

"I kinda think that Islam, today, resembles Christianity about 1000 years ago. Tons of those Christians ready to go apeshit on some other folks because their theocratic, oppressive leadership is giving them an outlet for all of that hatred and resentment that's built up within their people. Make sex the biggest sin, and make your warriors all sexually frustrated. Then tell them that it's ok to rape those women over there, because they're infidels, and so they're not really people. Except now, replace the sexual repression of Western Christianity and replace it with horrendous poverty. Muslims in the middle east have a similar cultural refusal to consider that there might be passages in their holy book that may need reconsidering as the state of the world changes. The Roman Catholic Church had that view too. Despite some differences, doesn't it seem eerily similar?"

"Except that when the crusaders took the war to the Middle East, Saladin didn't really run into Europe in retaliation and go on a rampage."

"Can't that be attributed to the changed nature of warfare, though? To wreak the sort of devastation that a few terrorists with bombs can do way back then, you'd need an army. If your army fails, is it really necessary to retaliate on that scale? After all, your enemy just threw away an enormous amount of his population. Does he really present the same threat that he did moments ago?"

"That's kind of true. The second, third, and fourth crusades didn't really do nearly as much damage as the first one."

"So what do we do about Iran?"

"I don't know. I think that as long as they don't have intercontinental ballistic missiles, we're ok here across the ocean. It's not like the Iranian Air Force or the Iranian Navy is going to make it remotely close to our coast."

"So since this won't affect me in the near future, I can stop caring about this?"

"It's not like you care about things that actually DO affect you..."

"Good point. I need another beer. I love this movie."
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crotchfire wrote:
... Muslims in the middle east have a similar cultural refusal to consider that there might be passages in their holy book that may need reconsidering as the state of the world changes...


I got a little lost here. What do you mean, Crotch?
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Complex_Number_States
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is that bit in the OT about not eating shellfish because it is an abomination, and the part where it tells women during their time of the month to segregate themselves from the rest of society, and the parts about enslaving your neighbors.

And then the place where Lot offers his virginal daughters for the sexual use of the outside crowd, since allowing the crowd to sexually use the angels who were under his protection would violate the sanctity of his home.

That kind of stuff probably.

I am just guessing of course, Crotchfire is the only one who can really answer that.
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Crotchfire



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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I mean is that if you are to have a conversation with an educated muslim man in the Middle East in his house, and the topic turns to religion, many of them will be all too willing to list discrepancies and apparent contradictions other religions have to offer, but will be totally unwilling to hear about any discrepancies or apparent contradictions within the Quran.

Now, this is totally unremarkable. The majority of people everywhere of every religion will do this.

The difference is that you could have this debate with a Jewish man or a Christian man or a man of one of the thousands of other faiths that humans have tried to explain the universe and you could still be friends with those people, and have dinner with them some other evening.

But have a debate such as this with a muslim man in the middle east, and chances are you will never be welcome in his home again.

I don't necessarily think this is a problem with Islam itself, mind you. In essence, there is much Islam has in common with Christianity and Judaism. I suspect that this is either a problem with the brutally repressive nations in the Middle East, or else it is a phase that all religions go through before they mature... after all, the Roman Catholic Church was, for a very long time, one of the most brutally repressive institutions in the world.

I didn't really use the correct words to convey my point in my last post, sorry about that.


On a related note, I read an article that, while it seemed lacking in a cultural neutrality (but then again, what isn't lacking in that regard?) raised what I thought were good points...

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-prager13nov13,0,5189241.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay...side note - ask me if I think Lot was brave, smart, or righteous in offering his daughters to the crowd of voraciously horny homosexuals.

And if you don't really want to hear what I have to say about that, I'll say this...just because there is something in the Bible, and it is bad, doesn't mean God liked it and approves...If God were to smite all humans who ever did something bad...we'd have been wiped out long ago...Oh, Wait...we are all going to die someday. Ever wonder why? Here's a hint...its a "cause and effect" thing.

Back to the topic...A War in Iran is bad...but its better than a War in america...especially if suitcase nukes are involved...don't you think?
Do I like war? Nope...but it is sometimes a neccesary evil...SOMETIMES. I guess those idiot leaders that we cry to after someone blows up half our Navy in Pearl Harbor...or flies three planes (almost four) into civiallian and military targets on US soil get to make the judgement call on whether or not war is justified and what other measures to try before getting congressional backing for said war. Having said that...I know I wouldn't want Bush's job, whether I think I could do it better or not.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

angelus_raptor wrote:
Crotchfire wrote:
... Muslims in the middle east have a similar cultural refusal to consider that there might be passages in their holy book that may need reconsidering as the state of the world changes...


I got a little lost here. What do you mean, Crotch?


Maybe he means that in the discussion between Mu'tazilites (who believe the Qur’an was created in a specific moment in time and should be seen in Its historical context)and As'harites (who believe that the Qur’an is a non-historical document) the latter seem to be the leading school of thought in the Middle East.

However, Crotch, it’s not as simple as that. There are many important Muslim thinkers, also in the middle east, who have Mu’tazilite ideas. Also, the Qur’an itself seems to tell us that its contents often have to be taken as symbols, not as literal truths.

Holy Qur'an 3:7:

{He is it who sent you the book: part of it exists of clearly defined signs - they are the base of the book - another part exists of symbolic signs}

Quote:
The difference is that you could have this debate with a Jewish man or a Christian man or a man of one of the thousands of other faiths that humans have tried to explain the universe and you could still be friends with those people, and have dinner with them some other evening.


Excuse me, but that is just NOT true. Have you been to the Middle East? I've been there many, many times and know from experience this is not true. There might be some of them around, but what about the hundreds Christians in Holland who refuse to even see their own sons and daughters when they decide to marry someone from a different bracnh of the Christian tree as just one example?
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Aramor



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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Aramor, as much of a problem as I have with pot smokers


I live in Holland... sue me...
Anything else about my personality you don't like?

Tinkerjeep wrote:
and people who think what you think...


Oh wait, are you still talking about that genocide? Maybe you oughta lay off the pot yourself if you still think I'm 100% serious about that...

Tinkerjeep wrote:
It's your right to speak your mind - one of the main reasons MY country was founded - however misguided you may be.


What the hell are you implying with that?

Tinkerjeep wrote:
But on your side, I'll give you this...you're young yet...if you get to be my age and still belive the way you do, then that's different.


Yeah, I'm young and I'm trying to enjoy it...

Edit: no more Mr. Nice Forum Whore...
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aramor the First wrote:
Tinkerjeep wrote:
]It's your right to speak your mind - one of the main reasons MY country was founded - however misguided you may be.


What the hell are you implying with that?



I don't know. Maybe we should tell him we're from the bloody Netherlands. You know, the country where Baron Joan Derk van der Capellen tot den Pol was born in the 18th century. 'Who'?' you ask? One of the main inspirators of the American Constitution.

Also, the country where freedom of speech florished long before the USA even existed (all throughout the Enlightment, the great thinkers could only publish in The Netherlands. You know, Descartes, Spinoza, the lot who put an end to the dominance of Christian thinking).

Also, the country that is currently more free than the USA. We've got gay marriage, after all.

Hurray for gay marriage.

And to stay on topic: we evolved into this in the course of centuries. We'd probably not be so enthusiastic about those freedoms if someone would have forced them upon us in a bloody war.

Anyhow, me and my gay friends (living in Amsterdam, I have many) are ready to wage war on the USA to force them into legislating gay marriage. It will be a friendly war though, involving slapping some sense into the 'moral majority' with purple dildos, calling ourselves 'the pre-emptive strikers'.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Okay...side note - ask me if I think Lot was brave, smart, or righteous in offering his daughters to the crowd of voraciously horny homosexuals.

And if you don't really want to hear what I have to say about that, I'll say this...just because there is something in the Bible, and it is bad, doesn't mean God liked it and approves...


It never even occurred to me that anyone today would think that it was brave, smart, or righteous.

But the concept I was addressing was the fact that, in the context of the OT, Lot was a righteous man. He was the only righteous man in all of Sodom.

In the context of thousands of years ago, on the other side of the planet, Lot was a righteous man. While in the context of today, on this side of the planet, his actions are despicable.

That is what I interpreted this statement to mean:

Crotchfire wrote:
Muslims in the middle east have a similar cultural refusal to consider that there might be passages in their holy book that may need reconsidering as the state of the world changes.


As Blaster says, context is everything.

---------------

And another thing,

Crotchfire wrote:
The difference is that you could have this debate with a Jewish man or a Christian man or a man of one of the thousands of other faiths that humans have tried to explain the universe and you could still be friends with those people, and have dinner with them some other evening.


Have you ever been to southern Oklahoma? Not only would you probably never be invited back into their home, you might just meet up with an unfortunate accident as you were leaving. Muslims are not the only group of people in the 21st century who allow their religious intolerance to lead them to violence.

---------------

And finally,

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Aramor, as much of a problem as I have with pot smokers...


Why do you have a problem with pot smokers? Is it because smoking it is illegal?

The big nationwide push to make Cannabis Hemp illegal in the 1930s was made by rich men whose fortunes were threatened by wide cultivation of the hemp plant. But the first two places hemp smoking was actually banned were South Africa and Brownsville, Texas. In South Africa it was banned as a means of oppressing Africans, and in Brownsville it was banned as a means of oppressing Mexicans. Smoking Cannabis Hemp was made illegal because it was the drug of choice of brown-skinned people. The white-skinned people with the guns banned it as a way to have further leverage over the brown-skinned people whose lands they had invaded.

Of course, if you have other reasons to have a problem with pot smokers, I am interested to find out what they are. But that would be a topic for another thread, I think.

---------------

And now, just for laughs, back to the actual topic of this thread.

There are decades of difference between having the ability to make a nuclear weapon that you can launch with a missle or drop from a plane, and having the ability to make a "suitcase nuke". Even if Iran can make a nuclear bomb, there is no way they will be able to deliver a "suitcase nuke" to North America in the forseeable future.

And anyway, you don't work for years and years to create a single nuclear bomb, and then immediately give it away to some terrorist. Having a nuclear weapon gives you power. Give away the weapon, and you give away the power. Nuke the US, get your country reduced to slag.

Sorry, it's just not a credible threat. At least, not credible enough to justify starting another war of choice, when we haven't even won the first one yet.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

complexnumbers wrote:
Even if Iran can make a nuclear bomb, there is no way they will be able to deliver a "suitcase nuke" to North America in the forseeable future.


they can always buy one or two from the Russians. they have some of this stuff in circulation. but that's just an unrelated sidenote stemming from my general concern for the world's lack of safety. please ignore me.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan: point taken. I suppose that I can't assume how friendly folks will be towards differing points of view outside of upstate New York. Although, personally, of the friends I have here of varying religions, I have several friends who are devout Lutherans, Catholics, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Sikhs, and a couple Muslims. I've debated religion with all of them, and the only ones whose friendship I've lost from these debates were the muslims.

It isn't logically sound, I'll admit, to generalize this to all muslims, but I'm human, and my view of a people is going to be largely shaped by the few examples that I've encountered.

Perhaps it isn't fair for me to do this. Regardless, it still makes me worry about the place of religious tolerance and open-mindedness in the Muslim world.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pot smoking isn't bad because its illegal, its illegal because its bad. It causes loss of brain cells, loss of initiative and a general attitude of "Dude, Fuckin' chill man." Which is not allways appropriate. it is infact a mind altering drug, as are others that are not illiegal, and so was banned for use by many Governements.

What the hell does this have to do with the war anyway?
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about you but I like a good blunt, some cake, skittles, mountain dew, a scary movie. When I get high its like shit goes into perspective. I've had some meaningful conversations with my friends when we get high as shit. Or we laugh till we piss ourselves...then laugh some more.
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crotchfire wrote:
Munan: point taken. I suppose that I can't assume how friendly folks will be towards differing points of view outside of upstate New York. Although, personally, of the friends I have here of varying religions, I have several friends who are devout Lutherans, Catholics, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Sikhs, and a couple Muslims. I've debated religion with all of them, and the only ones whose friendship I've lost from these debates were the muslims.

It isn't logically sound, I'll admit, to generalize this to all muslims, but I'm human, and my view of a people is going to be largely shaped by the few examples that I've encountered.

Perhaps it isn't fair for me to do this. Regardless, it still makes me worry about the place of religious tolerance and open-mindedness in the Muslim world.


Wouldn't exactly blame you, Crotch. I think, given the same position as you did, and the same experiences, I think it's somewhat natural to follow your mentioned train of thought. I guess you've just debated with the wrong people. So, yeah Wink just to let you know.

And.. um, what's OT? The one complexnumbers mentioned.
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

angelus_raptor wrote:
And.. um, what's OT? The one complexnumbers mentioned.


OT= Old Testament, the pre-christian part of the bible.

Crotchfire wrote:
Regardless, it still makes me worry about the place of religious tolerance and open-mindedness in the Muslim world.


Oh, well, I wouldn't say that all is well there. We're struggling with it, you know, like many other religious communities have in the past and will in the future - and even Muslims themselves are suffering from it, the intolerance is mostly directed against other Muslims (like the conservative Jew who killed Rabin).
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Pot smoking isn't bad because its illegal, its illegal because its bad.


ROFLMAO

Um, no. It is not illegal because it is bad. It is illegal because of racism and because of economics. Did you even read the post?

Loss of brain cells and loss of initiative. I got my BS in Mathematics Magna Cum Laude while smoking hemp flowers daily.

And as far as "Dude, fuckin' chill man" goes, those who lied about it to make it illegal have also claimed it makes you aggressive and combative.

Cigarettes kill thousands of people every day. And the US government subsidizes tobacco growers. Really, don't give me illegal because it is bad for you.

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk. It's that easy.
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

complexnumbers wrote:
Tinkerjeep wrote:
Pot smoking isn't bad because its illegal, its illegal because its bad.


ROFLMAO

Um, no. It is not illegal because it is bad. It is illegal because of racism and because of economics. Did you even read the post?

Loss of brain cells and loss of initiative. I got my BS in Mathematics Magna Cum Laude while smoking hemp flowers daily.

And as far as "Dude, fuckin' chill man" goes, those who lied about it to make it illegal have also claimed it makes you aggressive and combative.

Cigarettes kill thousands of people every day. And the US government subsidizes tobacco growers. Really, don't give me illegal because it is bad for you.

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk. It's that easy.


That's your opinion. It doesn't make it truth. I know several folks, my ex-wife included that were in the pot scene in highschool. they were class skipping, stupid, irresponsible kids that had no real initiative.

As far as "widening the mind", Jim Morrison and alot of other pro "creative drug use" activists spoke of becoming more lucid while tripping. Maybe that's why alot of those folks are dead from ODs and choking on their own vomit from getting drunk and passing out You watch enough episodes of "Cops" or live in a homeless shelter for a year and actully see these folks while they're tripping and it is pathetic..."sitting around laughing till they pee themselves" is pretty much the extent of usefullness a stoner will ever achieve while high. It inhibits your reaction time so driving is a bad idea...but pot is so harmless....says the fools that smoke it. You ought to see yourself from the eyes of someone outside your circle. You look really relaxed...and stupid.

And I think cigarettes are harmful too, but they are not mind altering.
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
Aramor the First wrote:
Tinkerjeep wrote:
]It's your right to speak your mind - one of the main reasons MY country was founded - however misguided you may be.


What the hell are you implying with that?



I don't know. Maybe we should tell him we're from the bloody Netherlands. You know, the country where Baron Joan Derk van der Capellen tot den Pol was born in the 18th century. 'Who'?' you ask? One of the main inspirators of the American Constitution.

Also, the country where freedom of speech florished long before the USA even existed (all throughout the Enlightment, the great thinkers could only publish in The Netherlands. You know, Descartes, Spinoza, the lot who put an end to the dominance of Christian thinking).


You mean this guy-

"Joan Derk baron van der Capellen tot den Poll (November 2, 1741 – June 6, 1784) was a Dutch nobleman who played a prominent role in the formation of the Batavian Republic and the revolutionary events that preceded its formation. As a member of the Patriots and inspired by the American Revolution, he wrote the famous pamphlet "To the People of the Netherlands" (in Dutch: "Aan het Volk van Nederland"), in which reclaimed a more liberal society and the end of the Stadtholder regime, which had been marked by corruption and nepotism. He was also an ardent supporter in the legal recognition of the recently created United States of America."

That's from Wikipedia...funny how he was "inspired by the American Revolution"...and didn't inspire the American Revolution as you claim. Here is another chunk-

"Advocate of the American cause
Previously, he had fallen foul of the Stadholder prince William V of Orange and the members of the States when he proclaimed himself against expansion of the army and the fleet. When in 1776 the British King George III asked the Dutch whether he could borrow the Scotch Brigade (a unit of mercenaries in Dutch service) to be deployed in the war with the American Republic, he voted against.

His overt support for the American revolutionaries was not appreciated either. Nevertheless, he continued to dedicate himself to the American War of Independence. He regarded the American struggle as an example for Dutch [Patriots].

To lend support to his views he translated Observations on civil liberty by the Welshman Richard Price into Dutch. The book was an important inspiration to the American revolutionaries. The Dutch translation was banned in 1789, together with other patriot writings.

In 1780 Van der Capellen arranged a loan for the American cause. Eventually an amount of two hundred thousand guilders was raised. He contributed twenty thousand guilders himself." -Wikipedia

He did support the American Revolution morrally and financially, but he did not inspire the Revolution in America but used the inspirational writings of a Welshman and translated them into Dutch to inspire his own countrymen in their struggle for more liberty. Funny how your country banned this book...I thought you were so free! What, You didn't think I'd actually look him up? I love it. You think you have it all, and we're all punks here. But you get pissy when someone pigeon holes you as a snotty liberal foreigner elitest.
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Complex_Number_States
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
complexnumbers wrote:
Tinkerjeep wrote:
Pot smoking isn't bad because its illegal, its illegal because its bad.


ROFLMAO

Um, no. It is not illegal because it is bad. It is illegal because of racism and because of economics. Did you even read the post?

Loss of brain cells and loss of initiative. I got my BS in Mathematics Magna Cum Laude while smoking hemp flowers daily.

And as far as "Dude, fuckin' chill man" goes, those who lied about it to make it illegal have also claimed it makes you aggressive and combative.

Cigarettes kill thousands of people every day. And the US government subsidizes tobacco growers. Really, don't give me illegal because it is bad for you.

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk. It's that easy.


That's your opinion. It doesn't make it truth. I know several folks, my ex-wife included that were in the pot scene in highschool. they were class skipping, stupid, irresponsible kids that had no real initiative.

As far as "widening the mind", Jim Morrison and alot of other pro "creative drug use" activists spoke of becoming more lucid while tripping. Maybe that's why alot of those folks are dead from ODs and choking on their own vomit from getting drunk and passing out You watch enough episodes of "Cops" or live in a homeless shelter for a year and actully see these folks while they're tripping and it is pathetic..."sitting around laughing till they pee themselves" is pretty much the extent of usefullness a stoner will ever achieve while high. It inhibits your reaction time so driving is a bad idea...but pot is so harmless....says the fools that smoke it. You ought to see yourself from the eyes of someone outside your circle. You look really relaxed...and stupid.

And I think cigarettes are harmful too, but they are not mind altering.


What is my opinion? There is not a single opinion in my quote. Do you know what the word "opinion" means? Is my degree an "opinion"? Are the lies to convince lawmakers to outlaw hemp my "opinion"? Are the deaths from cigarette smoking my "opinion"? Are tobacco subsidies my "opinion"?

And then you bring up "widening the mind". Where the fuck did that come from? Since you had no possibility whatsoever of arguing with my statements of fact, you felt you had to bring up some irrelevant BS?

And then you call me a fool?


This is the last time I will waste my time responding to someone who lacks either the ability or the intent to honestly discuss anything.

Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

Or if you refuse to listen.
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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

complexnumbers wrote:
Um, no. It is not illegal because it is bad. It is illegal because of racism and because of economics.


Opinion. Unless you have the confession of the legislators stating that they pushed for making it illegal for your reasons.

Complexnumbers wrote:
Loss of brain cells and loss of initiative. I got my BS in Mathematics Magna Cum Laude while smoking hemp flowers daily.


Personal experience taken to be empirical evidence that pot is not bad at all. Or am I reading your defensive statement wrong?

Complexnumbers wrote:
And as far as "Dude, fuckin' chill man" goes, those who lied about it to make it illegal have also claimed it makes you aggressive and combative.


Opinion. How do you know "those who lied" actually lied? And just because of "them" the laws were passed and there has never been any more evidence to support that pot screws you up? This assumes alot of weight was placed on the testimony of "those who lied".

Complexnumbers wrote:
Cigarettes kill thousands of people every day. And the US government subsidizes tobacco growers. Really, don't give me illegal because it is bad for you.


sentance 1 and 2 - Fact . Sentence 3 -restatemnet of personal belief.

Complexnumbers wrote:
If you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk. It's that easy.


Personal attack. Funny how you apply this to me, but don't think it applies equally to you.

So, "No opinions"? Okay. And whether or not you think I'm making up irrelevant BS, my empirical evidence is no less true than yours...and I was speaking to another member who stated they were more creative or lucid when high. So you could at least weigh it against your own "facts". I know you college graduate kids are the smartest fucking thing on the planet, but do you have to be so condescending towards us blue-collar idiots that never graduated?
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