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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amyltrer, I judge you are also not from the US. I have a question for you-

Do you believe in Darwin's "survival of the fittest"? Or is it too harsh for those that are not the strongest of any race.
In other words, if "might makes right" - another humanist slogan, what if you are overpowered by others stronger than you who have evil intentions towards you. Does Darwin's broadly applied ideal apply to your gang rape by 7 men who are stronger than you? Or the extermination of the mentally retarded, infirmed, Jews ,and Pollacks by Hitler?

I have other questions regarding Darwin's ideas, but that is a subject for another time.
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amyltrer



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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I'm not an american, and I personally think that social darwinism is a nonsense. Acording to genetics, the fittest is determined by the enviromental conditions and not by rasial differences.
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ack, Godwin. Not that such a thing is unusual in this forum.

Also, "survival of the fittest" =|= "might makes right."
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Blaster - The philosophy of Anyone touting "Darwin" as its founder or based on his principals is full of nothing but logic, that is the problem...it treats people as extrinsic things with no worth other than as objects. In order for true society and science to be workable a basic understanding of the spirit of man and of the world must be understood.

Whether you care to argue the ideas of the Darwinist doctrine with me is one thing, but if you just want to make pointless arguments about whether biological Darwinism "=|=" Social Darwinism I have one word for you -"duh." And if you can't figure out what I was saying by reading my post then that's all I will say, because a further explanation is pointless.

And I dropped the point, since after discussing it with Amytlrer I realized she thinks Darwin's theories and principles are crap.


Well, I was away for the weekend so let me get in on this.

Regarding my "survival of the fittest" does not equal "right makes might" comment:

I was merely pointing to a fallacy in Tinkerjeep's argument. Amyltrer was addressing and disputing social darwinism. By lumping that in with the biological definition of darwinism, Tinkerjeep distorted the argument. Amylter was never arguing that social darwinism was a logical or viable extension of biological darwninism. Rather, she was arguing the opposite.

Also, it is rather disingenuous to suggest that any individual who espouses the elimination of the human race (albeit in a tongue-in-cheek manner), begin with suicide. That suicide would not bring about that individual's vision for the world, as many others would not engage in the same act.

Nitpicking, yes. But I have a severe antipathy to illogic.
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Blaster
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Blaster - The philosophy of Anyone touting "Darwin" as its founder or based on his principals is full of nothing but logic, that is the problem...it treats people as extrinsic things with no worth other than as objects. In order for true society and science to be workable a basic understanding of the spirit of man and of the world must be understood.

No. Although darwinism can attain attain near-religious status in the hands of fervent advocates, it is a science, addressing the mechanism of evolution while eschewing spiritual considerations. It's not that darwinian theory denies "the spirit of man," it's that the issue does not even arise; that is why religion exists.

You seem to imply that the theory of evolution and religion are mutually exclusive. Certainly that is a silly point, as many religious (non-fundamentalist) individuals espouse the notion. Hell, even Pope John Paul II backed evolution, so long as it is according to God's plan.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Whether you care to argue the ideas of the Darwinist doctrine with me is one thing, but if you just want to make pointless arguments about whether biological Darwinism "=|=" Social Darwinism I have one word for you -"duh." And if you can't figure out what I was saying by reading my post then that's all I will say, because a further explanation is pointless.


If you realize that the two are different, then it would behoove you not to lump them together while engaging in a logical debate. By linking them, you make an attack on one into an attack on both. My first point should illustrate the need to keep separate the biological processes that is constitute darwinian theory from the moral question posed by social darwinism.
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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blaster...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


blaster wrote:
No. Although darwinism can attain attain near-religious status in the hands of fervent advocates, it is a science, addressing the mechanism of evolution while eschewing spiritual considerations. It's not that darwinian theory denies "the spirit of man," it's that the issue does not even arise; that is why religion exists.


"Religeon", depending on whose definition you take, is man's answer to try and find the devine. I am not sticking to that and am, in fact, lumping all "theological faiths" into one term for simplicity sake and to avoid the pointless argument as to which faith is the correct one. Darwinism/ his Theory of evolution does in fact exclude the factor of a designer, and hence is an atheistic P.O.V. of how everything came into being.

Christianity/Catholicism cannot agree with Evolution for one simple reason...the very basis of Christianity/Catholicism is based on the Bible which includes the story of the Genesis of existance, where God creates everything in the natural world within 6 days and on the sixth day he created man. The theory of Evolution directly condradicts this and so they cannot possibly coexist. Therefore the two doctrines are, in fact, mutually exclusive. Whether you follow one or the other, you cannot possibly miss this point if you trully research the two doctrines.


blaster wrote:
You seem to imply that the theory of evolution and religion are mutually exclusive. Certainly that is a silly point, as many religious (non-fundamentalist) individuals espouse the notion. Hell, even Pope John Paul II backed evolution, so long as it is according to God's plan.


Care to revise your statement?

Blaster wrote:
If you realize that the two are different, then it would behoove you not to lump them together while engaging in a logical debate. By linking them, you make an attack on one into an attack on both. My first point should illustrate the need to keep separate the biological processes that is constitute darwinian theory from the moral question posed by social darwinism.


The only differences are in the simple fact that one espouses that biological existance doesn't have anything to do with God's design, the other espouses that spiritual existance doesn't have anything to do with God's principles. Both deny the existance of God's design for mankind, whether biologically or spiritually.

Thanks to Simon for helping a redneck in properly using the quote
function

For anyone else who freally wants to read some interesting science- here you go- http://tech-meister.com/CS/Science/evolution.html
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Munan
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Darwinism/ his Theory of evolution does in fact exclude the factor of a designer


O RLY?

Darwin, in The Origin of Species, wrote:
There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

(Emphasis added)

Ah well, I know he wrote that just to put his wife's mind at ease, but anyway...
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Aramor



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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, is that another story about how the Evolution Theory sucks and that we should just get over it and believe in God?
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope. He really wrote that.

Anyway, weren't we discussing a possible war on Iran?

Edit: so, I split it.
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Christianity/Catholicism cannot agree with Evolution for one simple reason...the very basis of Christianity/Catholicism is based on the Bible which includes the story of the Genesis of existance, where God creates everything in the natural world within 6 days and on the sixth day he created man.

Actually, for biblical interpretation, what happens much of the time is that if it's just too odd to be taken literally, it can be (and is) interpreted metaphorically (iirc, St. Augustine says this as do several other theologians). Evolution can be compatible with Christian doctrines (e.g. Deists, Catholicism). I don't recall Darwin specifically saying that evolution ==> no God, nor do I think that was the intent.
Also, there is no means of measuring "time" until the third day, so how are we to interpret that as that the first two days are a total of 48 hours? Those first couple of days could have been really freaking long.
I'm going to stfu and gbtw.
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Aramor



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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
Nope. He really wrote that.


I was actually referring to the link Tinkerjeep provided. You just beat me to posting something...
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although Fundamentalists and Creationists do believe God create the world in 6 days (not 7, God apparently just sat on his almighty ass and saw that it was good on the seventh), the more-flexible factions will advocate many of the bible stories more like parables than historical chronicles, and thus the creation stories are merely fictious accounts that explain what God meant the world, and humanity to be.

Think of the bible as a set of poems, not prose. Of course there are true historical events in there, but they serve more as a background upon which the beliefs taught in the bible can be understood more readily be the intended audience (the roman and pre-roman middle-east).
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to defend my statements, but I see that it is unnecessary. The council has spoken.
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elrond had spoken?
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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, my Dictionary defines Darwinian Theory as: "Darwin's theory of evolution, which holds that all species of plants and animals developed from earlier forms by hereditary transmission of slight variations in successive generations, and that natural selection determines which forms will survive."

This contradicts the Biblical account of creation, from which the origin of the universe, world, stars, plants, animals, and humans are directly created by God in 6 days and the animals/plants/humans are all together and reproduce their own kind. Do I need to actually Quote the Bible? Cuz I'm sure with some searching I could find exactly the passages that are directly contradicted by Darwin's theory and evolutionary science as a whole.

As for your quote (is it the only one in which Darwin even mentions a "Creator"?) All I've got to say is this- I've read the same mixed ideas in Mark Twain's writings and in Edgar Rice Burrough's works. What do they have in common with Darwin? four things:
A) They all mention God or a Creator;
B) They also, strangely put forth the idea that man evolved from Ape;
C) They were all written in the same era -mid 1800s to early 1900s;
D) And they are all interesting and entertaining fiction.

Going by Darwin's own words in that short quote, he states that new life forms are evolving. Where is the evidence? If we evolved from primates and lizards evolved from birds and amphibians evolved from fish, and fish evolved from protozoa, etc....why are all of those life forms still here? Why aren't those genetic templates selected by Nature to become extict after producing the next generation of mutations as his theory suggests? And...Why aren't Apes evolving into men today? And don't even fucking mention black people as a missing link, cuz if I could find you, I'd bitch slap you for that.

Further- every single one of the "missing link" skeletons has been exposed as a fake, explained by someone mixing and matching fossilized bones from different species, or have been found to be the skeletons of a deformed or diseased human being. Evolutionists explain the elongated apelike skulls they have found as solid proof of the missing link...yet I have seen actual living human beings with exactly those same skeletal features...the people I am referring to are severely mentally retarded and have very serious birth defects as well. One girl in particular my ex-wife worked with acted exactly like a infant primate and she was in her early 20s. She even had the heavy brow, jutting jaw and teeth, and had terrible posture. She wasn't all covered in hair, and didn't have thumbs on her feet or a tail, but was in fact very humanoid looking, just on the primate side.

Am I making this up because I'm blinded by the "facts" of Evolutionary science? Or is there less there than meets the eye when it comes to actual "science", and science being defined as "KNOWING"? It is certainly a theory of the origin of the universe, but that, as well as all religeons, requires faith. In fact, If one accepts the idea that a creator did in fact design the universe and it's systems, it does tend to jibe with demonstrable aspects of our world, unlike evolution. Shall I give examples?

Or would that be a waste of time?

And you really should check the previously posted link...it is quite interesting.
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
And don't even fucking mention black people as a missing link, cuz if I could find you, I'd bitch slap you for that.

Maybe it's just me, but that seems uncalled for. I don't think anyone here would have even said that or gone into that direction. And I can't even tell if you're joking or not.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
yet I have seen actual living human beings with exactly those same skeletal features...the people I am referring to are severely mentally retarded and have very serious birth defects as well.

I don't see how that's better than the little gem you've written above.

But maybe I'm chagrined because I'm rather tired and I have no prospect for real sleep until... Sunday maybe. I'm leaving this particular thread for good now. Razz
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon_Says wrote:
Although Fundamentalists and Creationists do believe God create the world in 6 days (not 7, God apparently just sat on his almighty ass and saw that it was good on the seventh), the more-flexible factions will advocate many of the bible stories more like parables than historical chronicles, and thus the creation stories are merely fictious accounts that explain what God meant the world, and humanity to be.

Think of the bible as a set of poems, not prose. Of course there are true historical events in there, but they serve more as a background upon which the beliefs taught in the bible can be understood more readily be the intended audience (the roman and pre-roman middle-east).


Okay, Simon, you do that. I'm not telling anyone how to percieve the Bible, I'm telling you what it says, pure and simple. Whether someone wants to discount it as a book of pretty stories and it really is nothing of import, as Simon believes...it still says what it says. The words are right there. I've heard them directly translated and explained by a man who studied 7 years of Hebrew and 4 years of Greek and Aramaic ( The three languages the original Dead Sea Scrolls were written in) explicitly for the purpose of seeing how the originals translated over to the modern version. Whether you think the subject matter is crap or not, it says what it says. period.

But if you can't believe the words, then don't. I think the same should go for Darwinist theory...judge the truth of something by its applicability to the world and real life.

And since when are the Catholics or any religeous sect the authority on what the Bible says? Ask a Catholic and a Protestant if one's salvation can be lost...Ask a Roman Catholic and an Eastern Orthodox who the head of the Church should be......Ask a Suni and a Shiite who the head of their religeon should be. Ask a Mormon and a J.W. if they have the authority to kill other humans. You can't go by everything a high religeous figure says as 100% truth all the time...especially if they say something that contradicts the scriptures from which they derive their religeous authorty.
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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:

And don't even fucking mention black people as a missing link, cuz if I could find you, I'd bitch slap you for that.


Ipsa wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but that seems uncalled for. I don't think anyone here would have even said that or gone into that direction. And I can't even tell if you're joking or not.


I mentioned the blacks because there many stupid white people who believe blacks are one step below whites and one step above primates.
This is bullshit, pure and stupid.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
yet I have seen actual living human beings with exactly those same skeletal features...the people I am referring to are severely mentally retarded and have very serious birth defects as well.


IPSA wrote:
I don't see how that's better than the little gem you've written above.



I'm not disrespecting mentally retarded or physically deformed people in the slightest. I find it distrubing that you would assume that, given the fact that when I have an opinion about something I state it very clearly. My ex-wife had an aunt that was effected in both ways and wheelchair bound. My ex took care of the woman for many years in her adolescence. That's why she got the job later - It was to try and take care of these poor people whose families had virtually abandonned them. I was very sympathetic to her motivations and ideas.
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, split off from the original thread, so Darwin and his dangerous ideas can be discussed here.

But feel free to not discuss it.
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Aramor



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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I resent this topic!
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
This contradicts the Biblical account of creation, from which the origin of the universe, world, stars, plants, animals, and humans are directly created by God in 6 days and the animals/plants/humans are all together and reproduce their own kind. Do I need to actually Quote the Bible? Cuz I'm sure with some searching I could find exactly the passages that are directly contradicted by Darwin's theory and evolutionary science as a whole.

So are you proposing that the only valid Christian viewpoint is that of the fundamentalist? I should certainly hope not, as not all Christians (and certainly no reasonable ones) fit that category.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
Going by Darwin's own words in that short quote, he states that new life forms are evolving. Where is the evidence? If we evolved from primates and lizards evolved from birds and amphibians evolved from fish, and fish evolved from protozoa, etc....why are all of those life forms still here? Why aren't those genetic templates selected by Nature to become extict after producing the next generation of mutations as his theory suggests? And...Why aren't Apes evolving into men today?

Your understanding of evolution is heavily flawed. Various species are like the branches of a tree. Simply because a subset of a given species becomes subject to different evolutionary pressures and subsequently changes, it does not mean that the rest of that species will die off. Dfferent species are adapted to different circumstances. As the conditions of the earth are varied, so are the sundry forms of life. A species only becomes extinct if it has a significant disadvantage relative to whatever environment it currently inhabits.

Also, keep in mind that the usual time frame for evolution is at least tens of thousands of years. If you want to see microevolution in action, look up the Galapagos finch.

Tinkerjeep wrote:
And don't even fucking mention black people as a missing link, cuz if I could find you, I'd bitch slap you for that.

Holy shit, man! That was out of left field. I think you did a poor job of anticipating our arguments, and I am finding myself hard-pressed to resist reading too much into that comment. For the record, human beings are genetically more similar to one another than are various breeds of dogs. Nobody here would bring up such a ridiculous point. Well, almost nobody.

Regarding missing link skeletons:
Yes, the fossil record is incomplete. But your demand to see "proof" via the aforementioned skeletons terribly disingenuous. If a skeleton were found, one which bridged the gap between humans and an ancestor, you could simply demand to see a skeleton that is intermediate to the link and one of the end points. This would continue ad infinitum. Do you really expect such an extensive collection of fossils to exist today?

On a personal note, I find it strange that you distrust science, whereby we learn things through empirical study, yet you place so much faith in a collection of books which were written by humans a couple of thousand years ago.
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ummm I'm kind of offended for what Tinkerjeep wrote...As a person who's actually half black, why would anyone here say something like that? I've been in this forum for a while and I've never EVER seen anyone make a racist remark about blacks, hispanics, asians, or even middle easterners. And if anyone did I personally wouldn't stand for it not only because I'm a mulatto, but as a person in general. But for someone to let an idle threat just come to thought and let it be known...It's just...>.< its just...its like you're hoping for someone to say something derogatory about african-americans.

It's probably just me...

*edited for some blahs*
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So many posts longer then 10 words. it's not fair :(
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Aramor



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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you intentionally made your post consist out of 10 words? Razz

Anyhoo... I still resent this topic!!! Razz
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well when I first typed it it wasn't intentional. But then I decided that I should check whether it was 10 words or not, and it happened to be 10 words already :P

damn, this post has like seven hundred words.
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