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The war in Iran
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Against the warz



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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 1:38 pm    Post subject: The war in Iran Reply with quote

Is it a good idea to start the war in Iran?

The US says it wants a diplomatic solution, but has not ruled out a military strike. Reports by Seymour Hersh of the New Yorker magazine that the US has been carrying secret reconnaissance missions to learn about nuclear, chemical and missile sites in Iran as a prelude for possible air strikes only pile on the jitters on an already uneasy oil market.

I think the Bush administration should announce its intention to hold direct talks with Iran.

What do you mean?
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amyltrer



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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude, there's no good idea in starting a war, because the innocentes will be the ones to suffer most.

Bush and US Army wants to test the new weapons and get some more oil resources.
The truth is that Iran's gouverment had shown a very defiant attitude at ONU's nuclear disarmament demands. An arabic estate ruled by a terrorist gouvernment that posses nuclear weapons is an international threat.
However, war is not a solution.

As for Bush:
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/h/Q/bush_startwars.jpg
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Simon_Says



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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ironically more people have been killed in the War in Iraq alone than all terrorist killings in the past 40 years. Really. What a mind job eh?

Maddox really hit the nail on the head on the subject already.
Maddox wrote:
So here are all the things that Bush has done to impress the hell out of me:

He hasn't started World War III yet.

He manages to mutilate the English language only every other speech.

He cut taxes on dividends, because I'll be damned if those weren't putting me in the poor house.

He made our civil liberties less cumbersome by taking away all that long-winded drivel about having the right to report on immigration hearings conducted by the Justice Department, the right to protection against unreasonable search and seizure with McCarthy's, er, Ashcroft's PATRIOT act, and the right to due process for US citizens suspected of being terrorists.

He withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty. Good I say, global stability was getting to be a pain in the ass.


And of course anybody with a brain really knows why Bush wants the middle east: Oil. Apparently introducing alternative means of power jsut isn't as profitable as million-year old plant corpses. Assholes.

After Iran he's probably gonna sack Canada...
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angelusraptor



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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When that comes, are you gonna fly over to Singapore?

Just kidding Wink
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Munan
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Against the warz: Your nick suggests that you registered just to make this point. Please keep in mind that this is not a political forum. It seems to me there are tons of forums where this topic would fit better than in the General B.S. area of the aLp-forums...

Having said that, however, I myself am never against a bit of political talk once in a while and will, for now, not delete this thread, especially because some forum-members have already taken to responding.

I will however, monitor this thread closely, since political issues tend to lead to heated debate. Please respect each other's opinions and play nice.
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Aramor



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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say go war!!! Then maybe we'll start nuking the shit out of each other and everybody has to live in large underground Vaults until all the radiation is gone and then I'm gonna see live Deathclaws and Super-Mutants... uhm... hurray for Dogmeat!!!

Nah seriously, I don't think I'll like a war... especially if Holland gets too involved...
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angelusraptor



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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody wants war. We've seen what the World Wars have done to the people, the environment, and the world. Having war is like doing it all over again.
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Munan
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aramor the First wrote:
I I don't think I'll like a war... especially if Holland gets too involved...


If that is your only reason, well, that's a bit selfish, isn't it?

Also, Simon and Amyltrer, I think it's somewhat too easy to just respond with saying: Bush is a halfrunt.

I mean, Clinton has said he was for the war and this whole question should not be: is Bush an idiot or not?

What should be dealt with is rather: does the US have the right to start these kind of wars? Of course, talking about that, Bush's idiocy could play a role, but just flaming him is not giving strong arguments against a war (you are rather, I would say, falling in the trap laid out for you by this U.S. government - you need to ask yourself: is stupid really stupid, or just a different kind of smart?).

Also, I would have nothing against somebody overthrowing the Iran government, which exists of dictatorial theocrats giving Islam a bad name, just as I wasn't against an overthrowing of Saddam Hussein. The question remains, however, whether war is the right tool and whether it's the US who should wage that war. But then again, if not the US, who would?

Still, then the question of double measures pops up as well. If Putin's Russia, Sharon's Israel and Bush's US are allowed to have nuclear weapons, it seems a bit hypocrite to say Iran is not allowed to have those.

As for your comment, Angelus, very few would disagree. But are there any alternative strategies?
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Digitaaliklosetti



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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahahaha.

Dudes. DUDES.

Bot.
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Munan
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, you're so smart, let me kiss your feet and suck them too.

Actually, we suspect as much, but let the thread live - maybe an intelligent discussion might ensue...
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Aramor



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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munan wrote:
If that is your only reason, well, that's a bit selfish, isn't it?


Well... uhm... ofcourse that's not the only reason, I said "especially"... I mean, the entire War Against Terrorism Shit In Iraq... I just saw some stuff on tv and read about it in the newspaper, but besides that I wasn't really affected. Ofcourse it's shitty that people die and stuff (then again, I think it's better for this world if the human race just goes extinct...) but I mean... geez, I don't really know what I mean. War is one thing, but being in the middle of it is, I think, worse. It might sound selfish, but in the end we're all a bit selfish. Unless it comes to plattypusses... if someone messes with those, I'm gonna kill him/her myself...
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Gir is my homeboy



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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We wont need to strike Iran-Israel will first. Iran poses a much larger threat to Israel than it does to us.

In any case, most of the reports coming from Iran suggest that they dont actually HAVE a bomb nor are able to make one, and that the batshit looney president over there is just sprouting more of his garbage.

Not that I wouldn't mind someone bitch slapping them around a bit. But maybe that's just the Jew in me getting nervous about world leaders sprouting anti-semtism every chance they get-after all, it didnt' go over to well for us in Germany.
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Gir is my homeboy



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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Still, then the question of double measures pops up as well. If Putin's Russia, Sharon's Israel and Bush's US are allowed to have nuclear weapons, it seems a bit hypocrite to say Iran is not allowed to have those."

The difference being that Iran is a brutal dicatorship run by a -certifiable-madman. Who has stated his goal of wiping ever Jew off the planet.
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Simon_Says



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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In light of Munan's words, I already stated my position, however subtly.

"... more people have been killed in the War in Iraq alone than all terrorist killings in the past 40 years."

Violence begets violence, and if anything the war isn't stopping terrorism, it's fueling it.

Either way the only guys with helmets and guns I'd actually support would be peacekeepers (true peace keepers mind you, not a fucking invasion force inent on making thier victim an American satelite-state.)

Also, any discussion about the War on Terror, or the War in Iraq, inevitably brings up the question of Bush's intelligence (ie lack therof). Besides, he's too easy a target, it's irresistable to make fun of arguably the msot powerful man in the world.
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Munan
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon_Says wrote:
"... more people have been killed in the War in Iraq alone than all terrorist killings in the past 40 years."


Yes, and methinks you have a very strong point there.

Quote:
Besides, [Bush is] too easy a target, it's irresistable to make fun of arguably the msot powerful man in the world.


But that's exactly what I'm saying - don't you think that could very well be diversion tactics? Obviously, he isn't an idiot, since he got where he is now. Again, is stupid really stupid, or just a different kind of smart?
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Simon_Says



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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well maybe he isn't stupid, just a complete asshole.

Now I know you can't debate that.
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Alternate Spideygal



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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. But money is the root of all evil, and can even change the best intentions. I've heard questions asked about Kerry. What if he won? What if he was president? Would the Democrats have taken the troops out? I think the democrats would have been wheeling and dealing oil just like the republicans. Everyone needs money. Its how you use it, that counts. Bush is using money the wrong way. Thats why gas prices are up. He's being greedy along with the rest of the republicans and its not fair for the people. But they cover their tracks and make us focus on different things, like gay marriage. We don't need to make that an issue. We need to make government an issue. Government do not rule the people, the people rule the government. And the republicans need to realize that before its too late.
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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Aramor



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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Answer to 4: it seriously depends on the outcome... if the outcome is global peace, it's worth it... if it is merely one country annexing another, it's not completely worth it. But if that brings us closer to global peace...

Answer to 5: I think Mother Nature is going to decide... I hope so at least...
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amyltrer



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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:


Question 5) If the best thing to happen to this world is the human race going extinct...who decides who gets to die first?


Hmm, this reminds me of the nazi principles and the social darwinism used as a theory to extinct the jews.
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Tinkerjeep



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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Aramor



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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
So, Aramor, RE: question 4... lots of text!


I think that if we have global peace, we'd know it... but then again, I don't think we'll achieve global peace that easily...

Tinkerjeep wrote:
On to question 5... OMFGWTFBBQTXT!!!1!TWO!


I'm not saying that mankind is the worst thing that ever happened to this planet. I am saying that it would not be bad for this planet if we had like a new Ice Age and most of humanity would become extinct.

Oh, and I replaced your text with the things I replaced it with because else the quotes would be kinda long...
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Samy



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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinkerjeep wrote:
1) Are you better off without being annexed by Hitler's Nazis?
2) Was that war worth it?
3) How many Americans died to kick Hitler's ideals to the curb?
4) But we (the countries of Russia, Britain and the US) ran much of Germany for almost 50 years.
5) Now it is unified...was it better off when it was divided by us...and whose division is the best? The borders in Europe have been redrawn so many times in the last 300 years its stupid.
6) What about the "fall of comunism"?
7) All those ex russian satalite countries who are now "free"? Are they better off now?
Cool Can you honestly judge with an unbiased eye?
1) i don't think that's a question that needs to be debated
2) of course it was worth it, the result being putting a stop to genocide
3) a lot (about 300000), but less than russians, english, french, polish, romanian, austrians...
4) no, you didn't, germany has been a sovereign state for more than 50 years. just because the americans won't leave doesn't mean they're running anything
5) well, for someone from the west it probably doesn't matter very much, eastern german people probably feel they're better off now. if things would have been good in the ddr there wouldn't have been a big fat riot destroying the wall
6) what about it? Laughing
7) i don't know too much about the region but i would say yes, else nobody would willingly die to get/protect that freedom
8)no, none of us can, so you can sop talking right now, because nothing you say is unbiased
Tinkerjeep wrote:
Q4- I agree, we don't/won't have global peace,unless drastic measures are taken. But what price is peace worth...your freedom? Your voice? Your choice of beliefs in religeon? Where do we draw the line between killing badguys to hopefully set up a stronger, more level headed government in an unstable nation in an unstable area of the globe...and a one-world-governement that, out of necessity, squelches the voice of desenters.
this is a point where a clear definition of peace would be helpful. if peace is just the absence of violent conflict then i think global peace is definitely achievable. a step in the right direction to global peace is the un where basically all countries in the world come together to talk things through before fucking around with other nations. then again some countries decide they don't give a fuck whether or not others think starting a war is a good or bad idea. i am strongly against a world government, and find the thought of one rather ridiculous. even in europe there are big problems to establish a unified EU with enough power to govern, setting up a world government is nonsense because it's way too far from the people it rules. oh, and for me global peace means that i still have the right to speak my mind and belief what i want, it's just a question of definition
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