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Pedro to NY?

 
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bernieh
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:04 am    Post subject: Pedro to NY? Reply with quote

For the love of God, no. I don't care how good he is (or isn't), you just don't take a twat Yankee fans spent all last season hating and then put him on the Yanks. And if it happens, I'd better not catch any Yankee fans cheering for him just because he's a Yankee. He's the same little bitch that throws at batters' heads just because he gave up a homer to the last guy. He's not an intimidator like Ryan or Gibson were; he's just a little bitch. The only way I'd support getting him is if it were just to take him away from the Sox, and then trade him away to someone else.

That said, Pedro has been one sexy motherfucker of a pitcher. All we hear is he's not the pitcher he used to be... well I didn't know that in 2003 - the year before this past year - he had a ridiculous 2.22 ERA. His career stats are hhhhhhot. If only he hadn't turned into such a little bitch on the Red Sox.
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Stu



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two words: Roger Clemens.

The year before he got traded to the Yankees, he benas both Derek Jeter and Bernie Williams. After the game, Jeter and Joe Torre hold a press conference and cry that Clemens can't be a pitcher unless he intimidates, and basically blast him for pitching inside.

Lo and behond, Clemens becomes a Yankee, and they defend his right to pitch inside and wonder aloud why everyone complains about it, even after the Piazza incidents.

Yankee fans have a way to forgive and forget when the opponent wears pinstripes, Bernie. That's why everyone calls the Yankees an Evil Empire.
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Dean



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get the impression Steinbrenner wants it and the braintrust does not.

Now, of course, Steinbrenner ultimately calls the shots. But if I had to guess, I would guess he will be talked out of it.

Especially if they get Randy Johnson anyway...
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bernieh
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uhhh... I don't think the Yanks are considered the Evil Empire because their fans are fickle, Stu. Every team's fans are fickle. And I hate Clemens too, he's not really so much a bitch as he is a nut job. By the way, I like Pedro more than I do Roger.

Unit is the much better move. Not only is he better right now, but it seems like he'll even last longer. His career prospects, at 40 years old, look better than Pedro's at 32. Just look at the ludicrous year Johnson just had - a .90 whip and 10.6 K/9. Like Bonds, there's just no reason to believe this guy's gonna slow down just because he's old.
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Oliver




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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Ber, at least I agree with your first sentence. How is it that Yankee fans have come to believe that while every other successful pitcher in history just threw inside and brushed people back because they had to to be successful, Pedro Martinez is only throwing baseballs in the first place because they won't let him strangle kittens and push little kids in front of speeding trains? Come on. I can think of a half-dozen 2004 Yankees more deserving of being called "little bitch" than Pedro. Pedro is funny, smart and articulate. Of course, if he does sign with the Yankees - and at this point I still lean towards believing it's all a negotiating tactic - I'll eviscerate him with my bare hands. But that's neither here nor there.

Stu summarized the Clemens thing better than I could have. I agree that all fans are fickle, but Yankee fans do have a particularly distinctive way of loathing and belittling players one moment and then coveting them the next. Of course, that's because the ability to realistically covet comes with the territory.

Yeah, this past year was not as good for Pedro, but he was leading the league in ERA every freaking year right up until then. I think people gnash their teeth way more than they need to about him; he's still going to be good for years.

And I've gotta say, no matter what happens, living in Boston 1998-2000 and watching Pedro pitch every fifth day was the second-greatest baseball experience I've had. You just knew every time that he could do something flat-out incredible, like drop 17 strikeouts and one hit on the Yanks. I've never seen anything like it, and probably never will again.
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Dean



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Oliver; I don't see how Pedro is different than a Bob Gibson.

I think it's more appropriate for Yankee fans to critique how Yankee fans should react to something. However, my brother's girlfriend is a fervent Yankee fan who swears that if they sign Pedro, she will stop rooting for the team until he leaves. So there's one.

Johnson > Martinez, definitely.
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bernieh
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, I think Pedro was, and sometimes still is, the most fun pitcher of our time to watch at work. Oliver's right about how special he was. I only started hating him (and the Red Sox) so heavily last year, culminating in ALCS '03 Game 4. (And not because of the Zimmer thing; that was Zim's own fault)

Here's where there's a difference between Pedro and the intimidators of old.

AFAIK, and I never watched Spahn, Drysdale, or Gibson live, but the way they owned you was to sit you down with a vicious high-and-tight fastball. Maybe you were crowding the plate, maybe you took too much time getting into the box - they wanted to let you know THEY were in control of the game. It was a power thing. They were going to win the game that day.

I equate Pedro's actions to that time Armando Benitez drilled Tino in the back with a 100mph fastball because Bernie hit a homer. Pedro drilled Karim Garcia in ALCS game 4 because he gave up 4 runs. If you're gonna hit someone today, you hit him in the side or the ass, or you knock him down with something high and tight. That pitch was nearly behind Garcia, high in the back, almost at his head. That's not intimidation, that's wanting to hurt someone because you're a baby. That's not in the interest of your pitching, or your team - they were losing a close game, 4-2, in the ALCS.

Oh, and it got worse - the next inning, Manny Ramirez went up to the plate clearly expecting to see payback from Clemens. Manny saw a pitch that was high and practically over the plate and he flipped out. When things calmed down, he got back into the box still waiting to be thrown at, so he swung weakly at an outside pitch for strike 3. Thanks, Pedro! You intimidated your own guy in a playoff game.

And the whole yapping at the Yankee bench and pointing to his head, seemingly to threaten more head-hunting. This is only one example (earlier that year he almost broke Jeter's and Soriano's hands in successive at-bats, but I can't prove he did that on purpose), but just try telling me that isn't childish behavior. Just try it.

That's how they're different.
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Oliver




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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, we agree about Zimmer and we agree about Manny. ManRam clearly overreacted to a pitch that was pretty much over the plate, if a bit high.

I'm not sure how you can be so certain that "the intimidators of old" didn't do what Pedro did, though. You think Pedro did it because he was a baby; but maybe he thinks he did it because he felt the game was getting away from him and he needed to "set a tone". I don't particularly want to defend throwing at people as a way to win games, because I don't like it when Pedro or anybody does it, but I do object when people assume they know what's going through his head, and I don't think the way Pedro goes about it is fundamentally different from the way a lot of other successful pitchers have. I don't think you have any evidence that Pedro didn't believe his actions were in the best interests of the team; and maybe they were.

Petey claimed the pointing to his head - he was talking to Posada - meant "I'll remember this." Bullshit? I dunno, but you don't either. But I will say Pedro's reputation as a headhunter - as opposed to just someone who hits guys - is not earned. High and tight, maybe, in the back maybe, but when it comes to actually hitting the head - I can't even remember him doing it. He's no Roger.

Anyway, didn't Jorge just announce he's ready to be buddies now? You think it's in his contract, having to lobby players he despises? Smile

And as for Jeter and Soriano - those guys had their hands in the goddamn strike zone. It you're gonna crowd the plate so much that your hands are in the zone, that'll happen eventually.

So I still don't know why Pedro is "childish" while Clemens or Gibson or anybody is a fierce competitor. I don't know what's in his head, but I think he thinks what he does is going to win baseball games. And since he seems to have been pretty damn good at doing it, I give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Dean



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took that Garcia knockdown as competitive -- as saying "you haven't beaten me yet, suckers." (Most likely with a side order of "I'm tired and my stuff is getting hittable, and they know that as much as I do... but we MUST win this game, so...") He was trying to re-establish control, basically, since it was still a close game. So that's that situation, and if you're getting totally shelled, throwing at people is a time-honored tradition. The only truly "evil" thing I think you could really do would be to start throwing at guys with a big lead.

I read a lot about the old days, and I definitely get the impression that, in addition to intimidation, the Gibson types also practiced retaliation -- "You hit a homer off me last time? (or even, you took a big swing)? Okay... eat dirt."

It's an emotional subject, and it's a fine line. No one wants anyone to get hit in the head and injured. But realistically, no one is going to let the fear of being hit in the butt affect the way they hit. It's just not an effective threat. So, I'm uneasily comfortable, if that makes sense, with the idea that pitchers are going to throw at guys' heads; and I have a reluctant admiration, if that makes sense, for pitchers who can use fear and psychology to their advantage. Hopefully, pitchers can realistically evaluate their own control when they do this. I'm a lot more scared of Victor Zambrano deciding it's time to knock a guy down than I am of Pedro or Gibson.
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Oliver




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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hilarious article in the NYPost today about Yankee fans reacting to a Pedro signing:

http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/32014.htm

We wouldn't want a shower-cap wearing freak with a greasy head, now would we? No way! He's a crazy guy who everyone hates!

So it certainly seems that the fan base is not in favor.

I wanna now how it came to be that fans of the New York team - a city justly celebrated for its diversity - have fallen for this whole Steinbrenner conformity in appearance thing. Oooh, Johnny Damon has long hair! Oooh, Kevin Millar has a funny goatee! Since when is "presenting a clean and professional appearance" what we're supposed to celebrate in our sports teams? These fans are probably the same guys who turn on classic rock on the way back from the ballpark and rock out to dozens of guys who look just like Johnny.
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Stu



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bern, I know the Yanks are considered the Evil Empire because of George. I just didn't have time to espouse that while writing that missive at work.

I'm still waiting for a Victor Zambrano pitch to come near my seats one Saturday at Shea. And I mean his pitch, not a hit ball (and I sit up in the mezzanine).

Oliver, the Yankee conformity goes way, way back. Remember the Simpsons episode when Mattingly had to shave his sideburns?

Here's an example of Gibson's intimidation factor: he was annoyed at something the other opposing team did. So he proceeded to hit the next SEVEN hitters! Oh, and it was a Spring Training Game (this comes from a Tim McCarver book).
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Stu



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, now the rumor mill says Pedro will be courted by the OTHER NY team, the Mets.

On the one hand, a power pitcher is something the Mets can desperately use. If the Mets are not going to re-sign Leiter, getting Pedro for 2-3 years is a perfectly acceptable alternative.

On the other hand, it's Pedro... who knows when his shoulder will snap. And if he thinks the Yanks are his daddy, what are the Mets... his uncle?

Plus, you know every NL pitcher will be throwing at Pedro when he hits.

Much as the Mets can use a power pitcher, pass and get someone younger and cheaper.
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Dean



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedro will be a very tempting target for the Mets, because, dude will sell a lot of tickets. First of all, just because he is a superstar, and second of all, because it takes the rivalry with the Yanks to a new level. Can you imagine the hype around a Mets-Yankees interleague game that Pedro starts for the Mets? (Of course, Mets-Yankees game sell out even if Dave Mlicki is pitching, but, you know.)

That said... I have to agree with Stu. Good short-term move for the pocketbook, but not the best use of the money in terms of eventually winning a championship.

And THAT said, I am concerned that the Mets have their mind more on being kind of decent next year, and putting together their YES/NESN-esque TV station quickly, than with long-term planning. So, definitely do not rule this out.

(BTW, I hope Leiter, Franco and Piazza are gone too. Back up the truck!)
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Oliver




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stu, why on earth would every NL pitcher throw at Pedro? You mean the way they all threw at Clemens this year? Come on, enough with this Pedro the monster thing; it doesn't play outside the five boroughs.

And Pedro thanks you for referring to him as a power pitcher! I guess 91 is faster than I can throw, but it sure ain't what it used to be. On the other hand, he's actually been pretty healthy for three years now.

Anyway, NYT now reporting the Mets have made a concrete offer of 3/38. This is basically the same per year salary as the Red Sox; the Red Sox had the third year not quite guaranteed but very easy to trigger. Likely this causes the Sox to actually guarantee that third year, and so it's a wash at the moment.

The real question is whether Minaya will guarantee a fourth year at the same money. I don't know the internal calculus of the Sox brass, it's possible they're currently way underbidding the level they're ultimately willing to get to, but most likely seems that they'd be unwilling to go to four. Then if Omar goes for it - and nothing screams "Throw caution to the wind!" like new GM + lousy last season + lots of money to spend - Pedro would have to decide how much he really likes pitching for a contending team.

Dean, it's sad to hear you wishing Piazza gone. I still remember the message you left on my machine after the trade: "The Mets are kings of the world!! They got Piazza!" Maybe you should have rethought that Titantic reference.
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Dean



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It IS sad!! He was great for them. But, I became so disillusioned with him when he started playing games about moving to 1B. How that turned out ended up helping no one at all. Plus dude is just making too much. You gotta be ruthless! Theo would be. (Wonder if he waives Manny again.)
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Oliver




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Great Manny Waive is one of those things whose logic is almost never properly represented in the media when it's remembered. People tend to make it out into a discipline story, like Theo and crew were so fed up with him being one of the best hitters in baseball that they decided to just let him go, and when nobody else wanted his dogging-it-to-first, drinking-with-Enrique Wilson ass he realized he had to shape up.

Well, whatever pyschological effect it had on Manny, what gets lost is that the Red Sox undoubtedly had a plan for exactly what they wanted to do with that money if somebody took him, something that in their opinion spent that same money in a superior way, and it was almost certainly trading for A-Rod. (Once no one claimed Manny, they moved on to trying to trade him for Rodriguez instead.) The move was not a fit of pique, it was part of a plan. And unless they have an equal plan this winter - which seems pretty unlikely - it's not going to happen again.

Manny is also more attractive now since he's become such a huge fan favorite, and paradoxically, the fact that it's one year later and he still hits great and isn't hurt makes the rest of his now-shorter contract more appealing.

Did you hear what Manny said about when he took a tumble in left field trying to catch that ball in game 1 of the WS? "Snipers got me." Now that is a funny man.
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Dean



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the ruthless referred to his making too much, rather than to his weird passive-aggressive 1B act.
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Stu



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't anticipate ALL NL pitchers to throw at Pedro. But Pedro really loses his ability to throw at hitters' heads if he goes back to the NL.

And for the Mets, 91 is a power pitcher as a starter (Glavine? Leiter? Trachsel? Buehler?).
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Oliver




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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, perhaps I was too snarky and insufficiently explicit.

Pedro will not miss the ability to throw at hitter's heads since he DOESN'T DO IT. I'm sure he will continue to brush people back off the plate and drill people in the ribs and/or ass. He got hit three times in four years starting in the NL the first time around and seemed to pitch his game all the same. If Clemens can get through a season in the NL without being hit (in fact, Roger's NEVER been HBP - despite Shawn Estes's best attempts) then Pedro will be just fine.
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Dean



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude did win a Cy Young in the NL. Although I'm not sure I'd want to be in his shoes some at-bats, he seems to be able to deal with it fine.
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Oliver




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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well guys, it looks like Petey's bound for Shea.

I've read all sorts of smear pieces claiming that Pedro or the Sox brass or both acted in terrible faith, double-crossed, triple-crossed, stole lollipops from orphans, blah blah. But barring some more substantial revelations, it looks like it just came down to this: Minaya wanted to make a splash and was therefore willing to do something risky, the Sox wouldn't match them, and Pedro took the bigger deal. That's it.

Kind of funny that Pedro has requested there be no MRI in his physical. We all know his labrum is torn; so why not just let them take a look at it? Does he think/know it's even worse than we all already think? I suppose the deal could somehow still fall apart over this; if so I still doubt he's coming back to Boston, barring him deciding to accept arbitration.

Pedro could easily have a nice comeback year, or many. Pitching in the NL in a pitcher's park (considerations that were undoubtedly on his mind) can only help. There is a huge gulf in the possible outcomes here - he could tear his shoulder in April and never pitch again, he could be a Cy Young candidate all four years. I really think both are possible. I think Minaya was reckless and took a risk, and it definitely has the smell of trying to impress the back pages of the News and Post, but there are much worse risks you could take. I'd much rather have Pedro at this point than Sammy Sosa. With Pedro, the possibility of greatness is still very much there.

So farewell to Pedro Martinez, the best pitcher I ever saw; in 1999-2000, quite possibly the best pitcher anybody ever saw. He'll always be a Red Sock to me, and we'll always have St. Louis.
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Dean



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're right about Minaya wanting to make a splash. The Red Sox are on top of the world right now, and are in a position to let a guy like this go if they feel like he's asking for more than he's worth, without the fans turning on them. (And I'm sure they'll at least try to get a Matt Clement or a Tim Hudson to cover the spot, tho who knows if they can pull it off.) The Mets, on the other hand, are trying to remind people that they still exist. They overpaid (a lot) to get the one available guy who could achieve that effect.

But, y'know, I don't have a big problem with it. Would I have done it myself? No, but, I have to admit I'm looking forward to the season a lot more as a result. Pedro may not be any more valuable a player than, say, Carlos Delgado (who hopefully is the next to sign with the Mets), but he's much more exciting: He's a pitcher, so it's more of an "event" when he plays; he's flamboyant and controversial; he inflames Mets-Yankees tensions (I know they're not technically "rivals", but c'mon); and of course, he has the capability to be the best pitcher in baseball. I do think it'll give the Mets actual juice and vitality, unlike their usual cover-your-ass veteran pickups. It's a superstar, which is one more than they've had since Piazza declined, and a very fun superstar at that.

So hopefully we get another superstar in here (since one injury-risky one is not enough), fill some holes, and we'll have a decent shot. Hopefully PJ's arm stays attached, and if worse comes to worse, you can pull an Eckersley/Smoltz.
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Stu



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot who wrote it (I think it was in Newsday), but the writer made a comment that last year the Tigers made a big splash by signing I-Rod. Although he helped in improving the club, the Tigers didn't do a whole lot else and still finished 72-90.

The Mets have to improve their offense now. If it takes signing Delgado to the exact same contract, they may have to.

Of course, I am really, really hoping that the Saturday Yanks-Mets game at Shea is Pedro vs. Johnson (assuming the now rumored deal is going to happen). Might be the one game I truly would look forward to seeing in person in a long, long time.
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Treach



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, check out SportsPickle.com. It's like The Onion for the sports world, and it's actually hilarious. About the Pedro signing:

Quote:

Mets Offer Dave Dravecky 4-Year, $50 Million Contract
Hot on the heels of their signing of Pedro Martinez to a risky four-year, $53 million contract, the New York Mets are looking to add to their pitching staff by inking former San Francisco Giants pitcher and amputee Dave Dravecky to a four-year $50 million deal.
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